o/t Tory Britain

[durhamshrimp]

If you listen to the Vice Chancellor of Lancaster Uni he thinks increasing tution fees is a good idea and it needs to be done as do a lot of other Universities so it's going to happen, Oxford and Cambridge have already threatend to go to private if the higher rate of fee of 9k wasn't introduced. It was going to be a flat rate of £6k but to stop them going private the optional limit was put in.

If students put as much time into working as they do protesting then they might actually get somewhere instead of wasting 3 years of their life protesting about everything under the sun, if they actually paid some taxes then I might take them seriously.

Populist bandwagon calls here, jump on folks. Free copies of the Daily Mail.

[durhamshrimp]

So from that Marky you are saying that the previous administration didn't borrow massive amounts of money until the country went into recession?

I don't believe you.
What was it Tony Bliar said when he came into power? We have 24 hrs to save the National Health service?
I'd be more likely to belive Mr Osbourne, as were many if not all of the world banks. Hence our ability to borrow money has improved.

Same old, same old, always the same.

Big kids that can't get their own way, (and someone else pay for it) having tantrums and smashing things up.

I think you could do with some time at university. Or maybe even going back to school, your understanding of British politics is very patchy.

[durhamshrimp]

When will everyone realise , the country is on its knees financially. From Government down to small business.

Something needs to be done and we all need to tighten our belts.

Students have had it too good for too long. The average yearly fee at US universities is 30K !! The family starts saving for it at an early age, why can`t we do that?

Funded education should stop at secondary level , anything after that should be paid for by the individual or sponsored by business.

If people are so smart , then start the debate by where else can we find the money, not smashing up buildings that only costs the tax payer more money!!

Does someone want to justify this with an answer?

[durhamshrimp]

we are all in this mess together.

I think we can drop that line thanks. Sort of loses its meaning when its a pair of multi-millionaire silver spoon Bullingdon boys saying. David Cameron, George Osborne and the rest of them are not in it with anyone.

[Heysham_Shrimp]

we are all in this mess together.

I think we can drop that line thanks. Sort of loses its meaning when its a pair of multi-millionaire silver spoon Bullingdon boys saying. David Cameron, George Osborne and the rest of them are not in it with anyone.

as compared with the silver spoon people on the other side , Harriet Harman , Sean Woodward , The Milliband aliens

[Keith]

Recessions are cyclical and are part of the capitalist system the world economy runs on. It would be total madness to blame the most recent incarnation on the government of the time.

No returns to boom and bust...
In any other decade, a house price bubble would have pushed Britain from boom to bust...

Now then Marky, either you are talking bollocks and it isn't a cyclical part of the capitalist system or Gordon Brown was repeatedly talking bollocks and fundamentally failing to understand the basic concepts of economics when Chancellor. Clearly you can't both be right, so who talks nonsense? You or Gordon Brown?

And a few broken windows in London hardly compares to the hundreds of thousands dead in the Middle East due to the lies of the last lot.

[durhamshrimp]

Recessions are cyclical and are part of the capitalist system the world economy runs on. It would be total madness to blame the most recent incarnation on the government of the time.

No returns to boom and bust...
In any other decade, a house price bubble would have pushed Britain from boom to bust...

Now then Marky, either you are talking bollocks and it isn't a cyclical part of the capitalist system or Gordon Brown was repeatedly talking bollocks and fundamentally failing to understand the basic concepts of economics when Chancellor. Clearly you can't both be right, so who talks nonsense? You or Gordon Brown?

And a few broken windows in London hardly compares to the hundreds of thousands dead in the Middle East due to the lies of the last lot.

You may have Iraq as your own little Vietnam but for most people in this country there are bigger issues. Letting the Tories (who agreed with the war anyway) in because people are unhappy with Tony Blair is cutting cutting off the nose to spite the face.

[durhamshrimp]

we are all in this mess together.

I think we can drop that line thanks. Sort of loses its meaning when its a pair of multi-millionaire silver spoon Bullingdon boys saying. David Cameron, George Osborne and the rest of them are not in it with anyone.

as compared with the silver spoon people on the other side , Harriet Harman , Sean Woodward , The Milliband aliens

Not a fan of any of those listed to be fair but Cameron and Osbourne are a different league. I'd see 'Dave' is condemning the students' violence today. Pretty similar behaviour to what him and his Bullingdon boys used to get up to in restaurants when they were students. But of course it's acceptable if you're wearing a £3000 uniform and are throwing cash at the owner.

[P/T Indie]

Is it such a bad thing that the people in this country can't just scrounge off the government anymore for anything they like and just rely on the government to pay to bring up their kids, pay for their University education etc

I think what has upset people is that they are actualy going to have to go out to work earn money and actually have to pay for the things they want which might prove a shock to most of the country.

I was always brought up beeen told if you want something go out and earn the money and pay for it yourself.

[HALMA 1983]

I was always brought up beeen told if you want something go out and earn the money and pay for it yourself.

I couldn't agree more and every person has the ability to do without things they can't afford to have until the time comes when they've saved the money to buy it outright

Seeing those idiots who chose to go down on the sinking ship of credit cards and buy now pay later instead of managing their incomes correctly will all so comforting from the Life raft i've saved for

[P/T Indie]

I was always brought up beeen told if you want something go out and earn the money and pay for it yourself.

I couldn't agree more and every person has the ability to do without things they can't afford to have until the time comes when they've saved the money to buy it outright

Seeing those idiots who chose to go down on the sinking ship of credit cards and buy now pay later instead of managing their incomes correctly will all so comforting from the Life raft i've saved for

Very true Oldhamade and it's these people that dug themselves into a hole with credit cards etc that will shout the loudest when the cuts start hitting because the government aren't helping bail them out of the mess they got themselves in because they need the tax credits and the likes to pay off their buy now pay later loans.

[Moose]

Is it such a bad thing that the people in this country can't just scrounge off the government anymore for anything they like and just rely on the government to pay to bring up their kids, pay for their University education etc

I think what has upset people is that they are actualy going to have to go out to work earn money and actually have to pay for the things they want which might prove a shock to most of the country.

I was always brought up beeen told if you want something go out and earn the money and pay for it yourself.

Hear hear.
I'm not happy with this decision so I'm going to vandalise this window... Tossers.
What do those idiots think they will gain from kicking windows in? Other than making themselves look even more like cretinous scum.

[Christies Child]

I think we can drop that line thanks. Sort of loses its meaning when its a pair of multi-millionaire silver spoon Bullingdon boys saying. David Cameron, George Osborne and the rest of them are not in it with anyone.[/quote]


as compared with the silver spoon people on the other side , Harriet Harman , Sean Woodward , The Milliband aliens [/quote]

Not a fan of any of those listed to be fair but Cameron and Osbourne are a different league. I'd see 'Dave' is condemning the students' violence today. Pretty similar behaviour to what him and his Bullingdon boys used to get up to in restaurants when they were students. But of course it's acceptable if you're wearing a £3000 uniform and are throwing cash at the owner.[/quote]

.....and of course all those Labour folk eductated at Public Schools are saints.....

[durhamshrimp]

Is it such a bad thing that the people in this country can't just scrounge off the government anymore for anything they like and just rely on the government to pay to bring up their kids, pay for their University education etc

I think what has upset people is that they are actualy going to have to go out to work earn money and actually have to pay for the things they want which might prove a shock to most of the country.

I was always brought up beeen told if you want something go out and earn the money and pay for it yourself.

University education isn't like a new car a big TV.

By your morals then we should also be making people pay to go to school too? Why not start charging when we're 5 if you've decided that an education should only be for those who can afford it.

[Stewie]

I think we can drop that line thanks. Sort of loses its meaning when its a pair of multi-millionaire silver spoon Bullingdon boys saying. David Cameron, George Osborne and the rest of them are not in it with anyone

Is the core a lot of this "hatred" from you durhamshrimp simply jealousy?

So what if David Cameron is a millionaire , he pays his taxes and works hard for his money.

EVERYONE is affected by the recession from top to bottom.

[P/T Indie]

Why thanks

The thing is half of them waste their University Education anyway and how many students will actually be in a position to pay back all their fees as you only pay a percentage on what you earn over the £21K a year. In theory you could sign up to a 9k a year course and never pay a penny back.

It might make students think more about their future and other options available to them instead of just going to Uni for the sake of it spending three years there and then end up getting a job which they could have got without a degree anyway.

Lets just think who brought tuition fees in? Labour

and what is Labour's Policy on Universities? they don't have one they can't agree between themselves as they want a graduate tax but Alan Johnson is against it.

[durhamshrimp]

I think we can drop that line thanks. Sort of loses its meaning when its a pair of multi-millionaire silver spoon Bullingdon boys saying. David Cameron, George Osborne and the rest of them are not in it with anyone

Is the core a lot of this "hatred" from you durhamshrimp simply jealousy?

So what if David Cameron is a millionaire , he pays his taxes and works hard for his money.

EVERYONE is affected by the recession from top to bottom.

Do your homework before making yourself look silly. Worked hard for his money? He must have put in a pretty long shift on his paper round to aford his 3 grand posh boys uniform for his little club.

As for jealousy, very funny. I can't imagine anyone unfortunate enough to be jealous of that guy. Money wise I've got more than I need and unlike him I developed the ability to grow hair on my face many years ago

[Heysham_Shrimp]

The country is in a mess. No-one disputes that.

There is a huge structural deficit (that is a deficit that cannot be reduced by normal economic growth) and this was not caused by greedy bankers but by incompetent Government (Labour)

We need the best brains to sort out this mess and I don't care which school etc that they went to.

I have more faith in Cameron and his deputy Clegg to sort it out than the previous team of Brown and Harman !

[Posh]

When will everyone realise, the country is on its knees financially. From Government down to small business.

Something needs to be done and we all need to tighten our belts.

Stewie's economics made easy. If it was only that simple. The reality is that we, the public, are being taxed higher and squeezed for money yet those responsible for 70% of Britain's debt - the banks, private equity firms, large corporations are actually having their headline corporation taxes reduced. If interest rates rise we are all truly screwed http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010 ... my-decades.

Students have had it too good for too long. The average yearly fee at US universities is 30K !! The family starts saving for it at an early age, why can`t we do that?

This is just plain bonkers. The state pays for education because it gives all a chance to better ourselves. The same goes for university education. People learn more, gain qualifications and are more likely to earn more as a result, that means they pay more tax, that funds pensions, hospitals and more; they also are more likely to employ someone or develop a new product or service, which means more jobs, more taxes and more.

However university education should be a right not a privilege for those people with the academic abilities to get to university. Why should a millionaire pay £9,000 a year for their child and a family of say a nurse and dustbin man on £28,000 combined, pay £9,000 a year for their child? It creates and extends an elitist system that the majority of the Tory / Lib Dem cabinet went through in the first place.

P.S. David Cameron said yesterday to Chinese students that they won't be paying any extra to come to UK universities as he doesn't want to put them off coming. So that's alright then. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11724431

[Posh]

There is a huge structural deficit (that is a deficit that cannot be reduced by normal economic growth) and this was not caused by greedy bankers but by incompetent Government (Labour)

A few questions for you.

1. The USA, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland, Canada and quite a few other governments now have structural deficits that have grown bigger and greater than ours over the last two years. Was this due to their incompetent governments? Or was it Labour's fault?

2. When Royal Bank of Scotland, along with Spain's Santander and Belgium's Fortis decided to takeover The Netherland's leading bank ABN Amro for £49bn, a figure that was so high and overpaid that it brought down both RBS and Fortis, and both banks had to be bailed out by the governments of Belgium and UK. Was this the fault of the Labour government?

3. When the Icelandic bank Icesave collapsed, adding another £3 billion to our debt burden was this the fault of the Labour government, the Icelandic government, the bank's owners Kaupthing or the savers who put their money in?

4. If the Irish government defaults on its loans (caused by bailing out Irish banks) it will mean losses to British banks of over £5 billion, which may require a further bailout by this government. Will this be the fault of the Labour government or the ConDem government or neither?

[P/T Indie]

However university education should be a right not a privilege for those people with the academic abilities to get to university. Why should a millionaire pay £9,000 a year for their child and a family of say a nurse and dustbin man on £28,000 combined, pay £9,000 a year for their child? It creates and extends an elitist system that the majority of the Tory / Lib Dem cabinet went through in the first place.

P.S. David Cameron said yesterday to Chinese students that they won't be paying any extra to come to UK universities as he doesn't want to put them off coming. So that's alright then. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11724431[/quote]


The families wont pay it the student will when he gets a well paid job and starts earning good money if the student doesn't go on to a succesful career he might not have to pay it or not as quick anyway it will all be linked to their earnings. If the student goes on to earning massive money in a top job then maybe it's right to contribute back into the system.
Even if the failies wanted to pay the fees in one lump they have to wait until their child has finished and then their will be penalties for paying it early.

I can't help think there will be a black hole somewhere as lots of people might not be paying back all the tuition fees or if they do it will take years and years.

The Universities wont be happy about the comments yesterday because if anything they will probably want to put the overseas fees up as that is their big cash cow especially if they face cuts elsewhere.

[Posh]

The families wont pay it the student will when he gets a well paid job and starts earning good money if the student doesn't go on to a succesful career he might not have to pay it or not as quick anyway it will all be linked to their earnings. If the student goes on to earning massive money in a top job then maybe it's right to contribute back into the system.

Stewie's point was that we should be like the American system where you predominantly pay up front unless you receive a scholarship.

I agree with what you're saying but if you're in a privileged position you can get your fees paid by your family wealth. If you're poor you've got no wealth to pay it off and with a lower salaried job much longer to pay and at a higher total. That isn't fair.

[Christies Child]

Plenty of comments but little in the way of answers to the problem.

So.....what is the solution?

I think I'm correct in saying that one can choose to pay 'up front' OR defer payment until earnings when in work reach £21K. Whichever, the fact remains that Uni fees have to be funded somehow.....don't they?

Everybody has to take a hit for the failings of both the previous Government and the Banks.

[Keith]

Recessions are cyclical and are part of the capitalist system the world economy runs on. It would be total madness to blame the most recent incarnation on the government of the time.

No returns to boom and bust...
In any other decade, a house price bubble would have pushed Britain from boom to bust...

Now then Marky, either you are talking bollocks and it isn't a cyclical part of the capitalist system or Gordon Brown was repeatedly talking bollocks and fundamentally failing to understand the basic concepts of economics when Chancellor. Clearly you can't both be right, so who talks nonsense? You or Gordon Brown?

And a few broken windows in London hardly compares to the hundreds of thousands dead in the Middle East due to the lies of the last lot.

You may have Iraq as your own little Vietnam but for most people in this country there are bigger issues. Letting the Tories (who agreed with the war anyway) in because people are unhappy with Tony Blair is cutting cutting off the nose to spite the face.

I know you are an apologist for the war, and the liars who took the country in to it, and regularly dismiss the war as less important than things like student fees but I think it is a skewed moral stand point that so easily dismisses the deaths of hundreds of thousands of foreigners as less important than student grants.

But setting aside the insignificant matter of dead kids, there is the far "bigger issue" [sic] of the state of the economy. Well Joseph Stiglitz (chief economist at the World Bank and Nobel Prize for Economics winner) & Linda Bilmes (lecturer in public policy at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University) estimated in their book that the cost to the UK government for the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan would be more than £20 billion "by 2010". That's not to mention the social impact of dead & wounded British service men & women.

So personally, yes, I think that lying to take the country to war meant that those politicians were unfit to govern. That's not 'cutting nose to spite face', that's holding them to account for the lies they made. By the way, the Tories agreed to the war because of the lies about the UK being at threat. You can hardly pin that one on them.

But I noticed that you avoided the straight question that I asked.

The families wont pay it the student will when he gets a well paid job and starts earning good money if the student doesn't go on to a succesful career he might not have to pay it or not as quick anyway it will all be linked to their earnings. If the student goes on to earning massive money in a top job then maybe it's right to contribute back into the system.

The problem is that this format catches many people. Nursing is a degree course. Staff nurses earn above the repayment threshold after a few years but still below the national average salary. Would you be tempted into university to study as a nurse or social worker, knowing that you'll be saddled with approximately £30,000 of debt (average student debt is already over £20k)? I certainly wouldn't. Clever people from poor backgrounds will be put off from going to university because it is already harder for them. This is an appalling policy which will further reduce any hope of the country becoming a meritocracy. But then, the last lot did nothing to improve the position of people from poor backgrounds either. they screwed up enough that the Tories will now have free hand to introduce long held policies disguised as a response to the economic mess.

[P/T Indie]

This is a good article about my worry of their been a big black hole left when people don't pay all their fees back or when it takes years and years. I think the government are been optomistic on everyone paying their fees back quickly.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=26&storycode=414183&c=1