o/t.....eu

Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Keith » Mon Nov 23, 2009 6:44 pm

Posh wrote:They did have a choice in the matter because they 1. Voted for a national government who are with other nations responsible collectively for EU policy and laws, and whose European policies appear in their manifestos. 2. They voted for an MEP who with other MEPs are collectively responsible for overview, scrutiny and approval of laws.


Appointing a President & Foreign Minister for Europe were part of the Labour party manifesto at the last election? I don't recall that and don't remember the press making an issue of it, which is a surprise. Must admit I didn't read it all, don't suppose you can post a link to it could you?
“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: ".

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So how did that work out then?
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Number 1 » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:56 pm

It makes me laugh when they go to the "Home town" of that woman who was "Elected" and how they all fell over themselves saying how proud they were of her.

Bit like Thora Hird really. Whenever asked about Morecambe she gave the impression that she wouldn't give us the steam off her shit. I hated Hird. I expect that woman can't be arsed about her home town either.
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Posh » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:20 pm

Keith wrote:
Posh wrote:They did have a choice in the matter because they 1. Voted for a national government who are with other nations responsible collectively for EU policy and laws, and whose European policies appear in their manifestos. 2. They voted for an MEP who with other MEPs are collectively responsible for overview, scrutiny and approval of laws.


Appointing a President & Foreign Minister for Europe were part of the Labour party manifesto at the last election? I don't recall that and don't remember the press making an issue of it, which is a surprise. Must admit I didn't read it all, don't suppose you can post a link to it could you?


You don't vote for a party based on each single issue. As a result Manifestos don't tend to list every single policy. And because the media don't care about Europe, except when it might force a split in the Tories, they didn't cover it either. As a result you put your trust in a party to deliver the best for you and your country.

P.S. The best I can do is http://www.labour.org.uk/europe.
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Keith » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:21 am

Posh wrote:
Posh wrote:They did have a choice in the matter because they 1. Voted for a national government who are with other nations responsible collectively for EU policy and laws, and whose European policies appear in their manifestos.


You don't vote for a party based on each single issue. As a result Manifestos don't tend to list every single policy.


I'm not arguing for arguments sake here, but that's a pretty impressive 'U Turn'!

So we've clarified that it wasn't in the manifesto, so people didn't vote for the creation of 'the most powerful positions in Europe' that way. And they didn't vote for appointment to the 'most powerful positions in Europe' directly. And people have never voted for 'the most powerful woman in Europe' for anything.

And we've established that it is still democratic in that the people have ended up with something that they didn't know would happen, appointing someone they've never voted for, ever?

Just out of curiosity, if they turn out to be crap, will the people choose to vote them out and vote for a successor?
“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: ".

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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Posh » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:32 pm

Keith wrote:
Posh wrote:
Posh wrote:They did have a choice in the matter because they 1. Voted for a national government who are with other nations responsible collectively for EU policy and laws, and whose European policies appear in their manifestos.


You don't vote for a party based on each single issue. As a result Manifestos don't tend to list every single policy.


I'm not arguing for arguments sake here, but that's a pretty impressive 'U Turn'!

So we've clarified that it wasn't in the manifesto, so people didn't vote for the creation of 'the most powerful positions in Europe' that way. And they didn't vote for appointment to the 'most powerful positions in Europe' directly. And people have never voted for 'the most powerful woman in Europe' for anything.

And we've established that it is still democratic in that the people have ended up with something that they didn't know would happen, appointing someone they've never voted for, ever?

Just out of curiosity, if they turn out to be crap, will the people choose to vote them out and vote for a successor?


Nice try Keith. I try to explain that manifestos don't include every single line of policy because if they did they would be 10,000 pages long and you accuse me of a u-turn. Pah! The last Labour Party manifesto didn't say it was going to bring in a Supreme Court but it did; it didn't say they were going to bring in the UKIFS to manage toxic debts but it did; it didn't say it was going to revive the title First Lord of the Treasury and give the job to the unelected Peter Mandelson but it did; it didn't say it was going to remove the massive VAT cashback ride for the Isle of Man thus taking away 20% of its income but it did; it didn't say they were going to back the Heysham-M6 link if the decision came to them but it did; etc. etc.

Sure it was a big decision for Europe but the Lisbon Treaty was in draft stages back in 2005, as a result ALL the political parties were vague on the treaty and instead asked us, the voters, to trust them based on their underlying commitments to Europe and their approach to Europe as a whole.

On the voting issue you didn't vote for the President directly because the Isle of Man don't count. However I voted for an MP who didn't get in. Another however some people did vote for a Labour MP who there more of than the rest. They, the MPs, then elected a Leader of their Party after the other Leader resigned, who also got the job of Prime Minister. Who was then mandated by them and ultimately us to vote for an EU President. See easy! What's there not to get? OK I'm being a bit OTT but it is how democracy works and frankly it is as fair as you'll get.

There won't be a vote because you could end up with Hitler or a Joerg Heider type. Everyone will vote for someone from their own country and it will be just crap. It will also be stupidly expensive when there is a much better system.

As for getting rid the EU Parliament have the ability to remove them from office as does the European Council of Ministers.

Right can we now get down to a real discussion on democracy...

..the Isle of Man

Your Head of State is the Lord of Mann, or to use her other name the Queen. Unelected and what qualifications has she got for the job, less than Baroness Ashton!

She appoints a Lieutenant Governor on a five-year term. Unelected! He/she has the power to veto any legislation passed in Tynwald. By what right! Ridiculous!

OK the House of Keys is directly elected but the Chief Minister is chosen by Tynwald members. So you don't elect your leader and instead get your electors to do it for you - just like Herman the President. Outrageous!

Now we get to the funny bit. The Legislative Council. This is elected in a SECRET ballot by the House of Keys. So you don't even know who to blame for voting who on. Additionally there are two spare seats given to CofE Bishop of Sodor (that's the island Thomas the Tank Engine lives on!!!!) and the Attorney General (another unelected appointment by Her Maj!!!).

Consider myself furiously outraged!!!

;)
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Plain Peter » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:52 pm

Can't stand aside any longer.
Some people really do spout a load of bollocks.
Just hope they ain't doing it while they are being paid to a proper job.
Now that the Prince of Darkness' name has come into the arena isn't it time to lock the thread?
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Plain Peter » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:40 pm

Just been watching the news.

Sir Simon Webb
Sir Peter Ricketts
Sir Sherard Cowper-Coles (Copper-Balls).

Non of 'em would listen to sensible folk.
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Suzi Quatro » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:48 pm

A Council Leader who was unelected by the people of the District and who is propped up by the other political groups on the Council becasue they all crave for power. Between them they have done nothing for the District yet they all claim thier full Councillors allowances. We need a peasants revolt where the people of the District invade the Town Hall and remove these insipid Cabinet members. PR does not work in any way, Lancaster City Council is solid evidence to show that it fails.
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Keith » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:44 pm

Posh wrote:Right can we now get down to a real discussion on democracy...

..the Isle of Man

Your Head of State is the Lord of Mann, or to use her other name the Queen. Unelected and what qualifications has she got for the job, less than Baroness Ashton!

She appoints a Lieutenant Governor on a five-year term. Unelected! He/she has the power to veto any legislation passed in Tynwald. By what right! Ridiculous!

OK the House of Keys is directly elected but the Chief Minister is chosen by Tynwald members. So you don't elect your leader and instead get your electors to do it for you - just like Herman the President. Outrageous!

Now we get to the funny bit. The Legislative Council. This is elected in a SECRET ballot by the House of Keys. So you don't even know who to blame for voting who on. Additionally there are two spare seats given to CofE Bishop of Sodor (that's the island Thomas the Tank Engine lives on!!!!) and the Attorney General (another unelected appointment by Her Maj!!!).

Consider myself furiously outraged!!!

;)


...and to think some people say Wikopedia is useless? :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Posh » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:20 pm

Keith wrote:
Posh wrote:Right can we now get down to a real discussion on democracy...

..the Isle of Man

Your Head of State is the Lord of Mann, or to use her other name the Queen. Unelected and what qualifications has she got for the job, less than Baroness Ashton!

She appoints a Lieutenant Governor on a five-year term. Unelected! He/she has the power to veto any legislation passed in Tynwald. By what right! Ridiculous!

OK the House of Keys is directly elected but the Chief Minister is chosen by Tynwald members. So you don't elect your leader and instead get your electors to do it for you - just like Herman the President. Outrageous!

Now we get to the funny bit. The Legislative Council. This is elected in a SECRET ballot by the House of Keys. So you don't even know who to blame for voting who on. Additionally there are two spare seats given to CofE Bishop of Sodor (that's the island Thomas the Tank Engine lives on!!!!) and the Attorney General (another unelected appointment by Her Maj!!!).

Consider myself furiously outraged!!!

;)


...and to think some people say Wikopedia is useless? :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:


It is useless. Wikipedia on the other hand... :roll: :D

You probably wrote the pages anyway.
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby shrimpnsave » Tue Nov 24, 2009 11:26 pm

the 1st thread said bolox :lol:
football is a funny old game
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby Keith » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:06 am

Posh wrote:
It is useless. Wikipedia on the other hand... :roll: :D

You probably wrote the pages anyway.


:lol: :lol: :lol: Damn you useless spell check! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oldest continually sitting parliament in the world and one of the world's first to give women the vote.

Seriously though, after your arse of a Chancellor decided to wage war on "that tax haven in the Irish Sea" I'm becoming increasingly republican. Stuff the Lord of Mann, her representative and the Bishop. The VAT arrangement is one thing (it depends upon how you do the maths, we were either a net contributor before the changes and now contribute about £50,000,000 to the UK or we were being subsidised to the tune of £60,000,000 a figure much reduced now but still about £20,000,000 to our benefit. We put about £25 billion a year through the London Stock Exchange which Darling conveniently left out of his maths. Go independent and stick it through New York or Frankfurt and pay the UK nothing.

But that isn't what has angered many here, it is his purely spiteful attack of ending the Reciprocal Health Agreement. The following is a list of countries that the UK has maintained a Reciprocal Health Agreement with...

* Anguila
* Armenia
* Australia
* Azerbaijan
* Barbados
* Belarus
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* British Virgin Islands
* Croatia
* Falkland Islands
* Georgia
* Gibraltar
* Kazakhstan
* Kyrgyzstan
* Macedonia
* Moldova
* Montserrat
* New Zealand
* Russia
* St Helena
* Serbia and Montenegro
* Tajikistan
* Turkmenistan
* Turks and Caicos Islands
* Uzbekistan
* Ukraine

The following is a list of the country that Brown & Darling have decreed should end the agreement with on April 1st 2010...

* Isle of Man

Yes, that's right, as of April next year, I need health insurance to come to watch Morecambe play or you need health insurance to pop across here for the TT Senior Race Day but if you are from Kyrgyzstan (where?) you will be treated in the RLI for free. One 80+ year old lady got a quote for insurance. She's had a heart attack in the past... £900. Her three daughters live in England so as of April, she can't afford to visit them. Even more disgusting, one guy who is Manx born, joined the RAF straight from school. He served for 25 years, flying Vulcans among other aircraft. Darling and his cronies have confirmed that a 'services pension' is not a 'UK old age pension'. So despite serving 'his country' (and paying UK tax & NI) for 25 years, he needs health insurance to visit his family in England... unlike someone from Azerbaijan. This policy (not in their manifesto!) is pure spite. The costs were practically balanced. In fact, if anything, the Island generally is likely to be better off now that people visiting the TT have to have insurance. But individually the old and disabled are being screwed by a UK government who have proved themselves to be a bunch of war criminals, (weapons of mass destruction), liars ("no more boom and bust") and incompetents ("the UK is well placed to lead the world out of recession").

There are currently 30 men & women from the Isle of Man serving in Afghanistan & Iraq. There is a family who have lost their Manx born son in Iraq. Thanks to Darling, that family or the men & women once they leave the services, will need health insurance if they want to attend a remembrance parade in London...

The sooner you lot vote them out, the better for all of us. Consider me furiously outraged without the smiley face.
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Re: o/t.....eu

Postby get your book out » Wed Nov 25, 2009 2:43 am

[/quote]
it didn't say it was going to revive the title First Lord of the Treasury and give the job to the unelected Peter Mandelson but it did



[/quote]

First Lord of the Treasury is the office of the Prime Minister (sort of), Mandy is First Secretary of State, as well as Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, President of the Board of Trade and Lord President of the Council......wow thats a mouthful
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