O/T BLOODY MESS IN AFGHANISTAN

[mrpotatohead]

I know this is a footy forum, but i feel that the death toll for young people from the uk in afghanistan is not worth continuing a war we cannot win.


If so called trained afghan poicemen are killing our defenceless off duty troops, we are very obviously in a no win situation and should leave them to it.

we all know its about oil, but i have kids about to make career choices, and the army looks a bad one imo

[RedRedWine1]

Tell your children to study hard and hope they don't graduate in the middle of the biggest recession since the great depression.

[wonder shrimp]

oil? in afghanistan? i think your getting confused with iraq! i think there's some talk of an important gas pipeline but that's clearly a long way off!

whatever the reasons for being there how exactly would you suggest leaving? raise the white flag and hope that the taliban all of a sudden start respecting the rules of war?

[mrpotatohead]

http://uk.wrs.yahoo.com/_ylt=A1f4bVdwkf ... q=oil.html

[Christies Child]

I was and remain totally against the invasion of Iraq. Now proved to be based on a lie.

I also remain totally against any involvement in Afghanistan and would cheer to the heavons if our troops ever return. The supersition in my opinion that our involvement is to bring a western based democracy to that country and to diminish the chances of further terrorist attacks on UK and other countries negates the fact that the majority of terrorism eminates from Pakistan and yet we openly support that country and its activities without commiting troops to assist its own armed forces to irradicate the terrorist training grounds.

The sooner we get out of Afghanistan and divert the costs involved into looking after the wellbeing of our own population here in the UK the better.

Terrorism has been around since time began. It will never be totally irradicated. To confront it in an attempt to diminish its effect needs to be at source ie training grounds rather than sending thousands of troops to become targets for the terrorists cause.

[Heysham_red]

Tell your children to study hard and hope they don't graduate in the middle of the biggest recession since the great depression.

So no one in the armed forces has an education? There are some who choose a career in the armed forces and not use it as a last resort for a job so I don’t think that’s a fair statement.

I am sure there a few supports who appreciate you calling them uneducated but the fact remains this people get more training and educational opportunities that most people get in other jobs.

...majority of terrorism eminates from Pakistan

wow thats a powerful statement, can you back that up with facts please?

[RedRedWine1]

Where have I said that people in the armed forces are uneducated?

I'm actually having a bit of a joke at my expense, a recent graduate who has struggled to find employment in the area that I studied due to the current economic climate. Perhaps this path was not the best one for me to take, given that friends who left school at 16 to either take on a role in the forces or an apprenticeship are on the large earning good money. Oh well.

You should apologise and/or withdraw your unfounded statement before people get the wrong idea, I've nothing but respect for those in the forces.

[Heysham_red]

...but i have kids about to make career choices, and the army looks a bad one imo

Tell your children to study hard and hope they don't graduate in the middle of the biggest recession since the great depression.

What exactly are you implying here then? I wont be apologising and/or withdrawing my statement.

[campdave]

...but i have kids about to make career choices, and the army looks a bad one imo

Tell your children to study hard and hope they don't graduate in the middle of the biggest recession since the great depression.

What exactly are you implying here then? I wont be apologising and/or withdrawing my statement.

Well, I understood what it meant. Let the willy waving standoff continue.

[eggchaser]

Tell your children to study hard and hope they don't graduate in the middle of the biggest recession since the great depression.

So no one in the armed forces has an education? There are some who choose a career in the armed forces and not use it as a last resort for a job so I don’t think that’s a fair statement.

I am sure there a few supports who appreciate you calling them uneducated but the fact remains this people get more training and educational opportunities that most people get in other jobs.

I'm actually joining up in February and trust me Having been through the selection process the Army Has to be you FIRST choice for you to have any chance of getting in, this perception of the army being a last resort couldnt be further from the point if you want the good jobs that are well payed then you need to have an education and pass several physical and mental tests its certainly not "whats your surname? sign here and here is your gun" and Heysham red is absolutely right about the training you receive, when I do my phase 2 (Trade training) I will learn to drive a car and a truck I will also get an ECDL (European Computer Driving License) and depending on how long you have been in the army when you leave they will give you thousands of pounds to go and re-train yourself for life outside the armed forces there definately aren't many jobs like that at all.

...majority of terrorism eminates from Pakistan


wow thats a powerful statement, can you back that up with facts please?

He actually has a point that Pakistan are the main foreign country for terrorist attacks on britain however around 75% of terrorism in the UK comes from within the UK itself and 25% comes from other countries of which the Majority comes from Pakistan.

[RedRedWine1]

...but i have kids about to make career choices, and the army looks a bad one imo

Tell your children to study hard and hope they don't graduate in the middle of the biggest recession since the great depression.

What exactly are you implying here then? I wont be apologising and/or withdrawing my statement.

In all honesty my post has nothing to do with the army and certainly does not indicate that those who join the forces are uneducated. Many of my friends are in the forces, and joined at 16 for the reasons that you suggest. My opening comment is more of a frustrated pop at my own current circumstances. I'm implying (not terribly well it seems) that continuing with studies is not always the best option, especially at the moment.

Potatohead is talking about career choices for his children, continuing with education for many is a career choice popularised at school, for some it is even a choice they are pressured into by their parents. I'd say that the majority of youngsters continue studies after GCSE's not because they love studying, but because a carrot is dangled that the longer you stay in education the greater your employment opportunities and earning potential will become (study hard). This is a complete farce, not helped by successive governments targeting 50% of youngsters being University educated and expecting to walk into a high paid job or by the current climate (but that is right across the board).

Personally though I enjoyed studying, at the moment I can't help but think I'd be better off if I hadn't have bothered. Many of my mates that left school at 16 have their own house, have had decent money coming in the seven years that have passed since leaving school, and not racked up thousands of pounds worth of debt.

[Keith]

As with many things in communication, the written medium is not always the best for expressing views, with the reader having the opportunity to interpret the message differently to how it was intended. I think Red Red Wine has made it clear in the last posting what they meant in the first. Probably it would have been better as an off topic thread in its own right? While Shrimps Voices has a history of going off topic, in this instance, I'd suggest RRW or anyone else, open a new topic where that frustration can be discussed, or we let that last message be the final say re education in general and stick to Afghanistan.

[Mark S]

Or we could steer clear of Afghanistan entirely?

A subject that can be very personal to some, and will no doubt stir up feelings and arguements.

[George Dawes]

not only was it wrong to go into Iraq 2nd time round, it was stupid having two wars on two fronts splitting the forces in two


as there was and still is a lot of work to be done in Afghanistan

[durianmuncher]

Going into both countries was wrong.

Murdering so many innocent people in Iraq under false allegations of having weapons of mass destruction has been absolutely disgusting and the government who supported such a policy are wallowing in the blood of the innocent victims.

While Afghanistan is a different case, with the Taliban being far more unpleasant than Saddam Hussein ever was, there was still no need to send troops out there on the pretense of a serious threat to Britain. As was posted above, there have been far more threats from groups in Pakistan.

Until the Iraq war, I had always voted Labour, but since then I have switched to the Greens and will never cast another vote for a party which is responsible for so many deaths, including our own young troops.

[George Dawes]

Until the Iraq war, I had always voted Labour, but since then I have switched to the Greens and will never cast another vote for a party which is responsible for so many deaths, including our own young troops.

even the Conservative party went on record and said they would have done the same and gone in with America



going into Afghanistan, America and the Allied forces had the moral high ground to some extent with war on terror 9/11, and you could say it brought peace in Ireland with the IRA losing massive support in America, with a lot of them Firemen in New York just like the NYPD who have a strong Irish tradition what goes back generations, on St Patrick's day throwing money in them buckets and funding the IRA, had terrorism back in there faces on 9/11

[Keith]

even the Conservative party went on record and said they would have done the same and gone in with America

Not sure they've gone on record to say they would also have lied to parliament to go to war though? Bliar lied to the people, lied to parliament, falsified evidence all so he could take us to war in the Middle East. And when the country is finally rid of him, what do 'they' do? Give him a shed load of money to become the peace envoy to the Middle East. Apparently he's been there once in the last year, but his salary doesn't depend upon him actually doing anything. still, it'll keep him going until he becomes President Bliar. If we'd lost, he'd have been declared a war criminal.

[George Dawes]

even the Conservative party went on record and said they would have done the same and gone in with America

Not sure they've gone on record to say they would also have lied to parliament to go to war though? Bliar lied to the people, lied to parliament, falsified evidence all so he could take us to war in the Middle East. And when the country is finally rid of him, what do 'they' do? Give him a shed load of money to become the peace envoy to the Middle East. Apparently he's been there once in the last year, but his salary doesn't depend upon him actually doing anything. still, it'll keep him going until he becomes President Bliar. If we'd lost, he'd have been declared a war criminal.

it was that Ian Duncan Smith what said it on Live TV a few years ago now on a program like question time, could have been the Andrew Marr show

[Suzi Quatro]

The war in Afghanistan has been proved a Government folly as well as the illegal war in IRAQ.
The war in Afghanistan is a war that will never be won. Brown and his cronies need to apologise to those famalies who have lost those they love and resign.
Any parent who has a son or daughter contemplating joining the army should be aware that our defence policy is a joke and at best a shambles. Any individual wishing to join the army should not bother because you will not be doing any good at all. We have a Government who are puppets for America as well as having a vested interest in oil.
We need to see our soldidres immediatly withdrawn from Afghanistan as well as the resignation of our incompetent Prime Minister.
These follies will come to haunt Brown at the election.

[Plain Peter]

Totally agree.

[Keith]

I don't know whether we should pull out, when you've got a tiger by the tail, you hold on hard. I don't think we should have gone in, nor in to Iraq for the second time. Now that they have a puppet administration, appointed by the US rather than elected, goodness knows where things will go next. Mind you, Bush was elected in the first place by coming second, so we shouldn't be surprised that a country that doesn't actually practice democracy shouldn't be able to take it to the Afghan people.

While the Taliban were evil & ruthless, things like poppy production was massively down, because they wouldn't allow it. Now under our mismanagement, poppy production is huge again.

I can't help wondering though whether our politicians were incredibly clever? By stirring up Afghanistan, have they attracted all the terrorists to the one place, where they are now fighting against professionals instead of fighting civilians? There have been less terrorist atrocities since we've been fighting in Afghanistan. Was this actually predicted and an unsaid part of the plan? I say this because surely our leaders couldn't have been so thick that that they couldn't predict what the rest of the population could?

Anyone who has an interest in the politics of the Middle East should read The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East, by Robert Fisk. This tomb of a book is an amazing account of Fisk's personal history, the events that he has witnessed over decades of reporting Middle East conflict interspersed with narratives of relevant historical contexts. The further in to the book you get, the more you realise the way that this complex web is woven, can never be simply unravelled.

[Keith]

As a taster, Fisk's offerings to The Independent this week:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 14194.html