o/t 9/11: 102 Minutes That Changed America

[Keith]

Eight years on and it's still as fresh as ever. Captivating, horrific, yet compelling viewing.

If you missed it, you can watch on line... The bravery of emergency services personnel is still amazing.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/102- ... ed-america

[George Dawes]

totally agree it still gets me watching it



i dont know if you've seen it but there's a DVD they tried banning you can still DL or buy off Ebay called

loose change

its a conspiracy theory version with some dodgy stuff on like how impossible it was for a plane to hit bullseye at the pentagon, and why when helicopter pilots said it wasn't a problem landing on the roofs, a drill they use to practise often was told to stay away, and that the smoke wasn't really a problem


raises a good few eyebrows

[durhamshrimp]

totally agree it still gets me watching it



i dont know if you've seen it but there's a DVD they tried banning you can still DL or buy off Ebay called

loose change

its a conspiracy theory version with some dodgy stuff on like how impossible it was for a plane to hit bullseye at the pentagon, and why when helicopter pilots said it wasn't a problem landing on the roofs, a drill they use to practise often was told to stay away, and that the smoke wasn't really a problem


raises a good few eyebrows

Even better than that is the episode of South Park about the 9/11 conspiracies. Its hilarious.

[Plain Peter]

I'd just got home from work.
New York BST -5
0845 New York time = 1345 BST
Riyadh BST + 2 = 1545 Riyadh local time.
I was back in work 4 hours later, because the main man wanted to send a telegram to inform all and sundry what the initial reaction was from the Saudis.

It's certainly one of those events in life where you never forget where you were.
Bit like Diana's death, when I was definately in the wrong place at the wrong time, on duty in our gaff in Paris;
or down the Falklands in 1982, when I was at action stations on HMS HERMES, when our squadron of Sea Harriers took off to bomb Stanley airstrip. I lost count of the number of times I counted the aircraft take-off on that ski-ramp, and then counted them back on again after a safe sortie.

Personally, I don't need constantly reminding of events like 9/11.
Yep, the programmes might make compulsive viewing.
But I put a questionmark about where all the money made from such documentaties ends up.

The aftermath of 9/11 is with us every day anyway.

[Posh]

Extraordinarily well made documentary with no narration, the only titles a clock and chilling comments that probably seemed innocuous at the time. The moment for me that nearly had me in tears was the young command centre worker talking to the senior fire commander reading out the list of fire crews currently in the two towers before they collapsed. The list went on to for a good couple of minutes - Ladder 47, Ladder 42, Engine 37... - haunting.

The other thing was the decisions that ordinary people had to make. The emergency call centre staff telling people whether to stay or leave the building; fire workers deciding whether to enter or leave a building; and worst of all people trapped above the fires making decisions on how they might die.

From a personal perspective the events of the day were utterly haunting and will stay with me for ever. I used to live across the freeway from the World Trade Centre in an apartment building that was heavily damaged and subsequently knocked down. I used to sell advertising to banks so regularly had meetings in the two towers, including with the Head of Derivatives at Fuji Capital Markets who had a corner office on the 96th Floor with just windows for external walls. The view was unbelievable. They moved out later but obviously others moved in.

Yet everything changed a few weeks later. It was then I learnt that two people I knew well from a competitor magazine (I wouldn't call them friends but they were there at every conference, exhibition, trade show, party and we would chat a lot; Neil worked at our company for a while too) had both died. They were at a Conference held in Windows on the World on the 106th Floor of the tower first hit. Quite a few British delegates were late including a client after a heavy session at the bar the night before - a hangover saved their lives. Yet these two people were part of the company organising it and had to be there. I also thought they were engaged. Dinah and Neil are the two faces that come to me when I think of that day now.

If you want to read Peter Field's story of that day it is worth a quick read http://www.watersonline.com/public/show ... age=152572.

[outsider]

Did anybody else notice that when talking to people in times square, one bright spark replied "We should go and bomb Finland and all them Arab country's and just kill them " it is at 1hr 15 mins

[ezz]

I'll never forget the image on the news of all the people rushing down the stairways and one fireman going upwards to try and help anyone cut off. True bravery and heroism from a man who carried out his duty in the face of utter chaos. A sick day indeed and one that will haunt many poor families and as posh said friends.

[George Dawes]

i remember one witness saying the first plane was a "british airways"

[Keith]

i remember one witness saying the first plane was a "british airways"

To be fair, you get that type of thing at all disasters, where mis-information is rife.

As Posh said, the bit where they were saying how many engines were there was so belittling, their bravery immense. In particular, the firemen who continued to enter the second tower to collapse, after the first one had already gone down.

[durhamshrimp]

People only crow on about this because it was an act of terrorism and because it's America. Sad as it was, it's dwelled upon much more than the bravery and tragedy that occured 4 years later in the asian tsunami where nearly 100 times as many people died.

[Posh]

People only crow on about this because it was an act of terrorism and because it's America. Sad as it was, it's dwelled upon much more than the bravery and tragedy that occured 4 years later in the asian tsunami where nearly 100 times as many people died.

I share your view but disagree on the reasons. The events of September the 11th took place with the entire world watching live and in extraordinary circumstances. Theoretically if something similar happened live on television to the Eiffel Tower and the Sacre Couer, I'm sure the drama of the event would be similar.

With the tsunami it happened on Boxing Day when news teams were on holiday - the BBC only realised the enormity of what had happened a couple of days later. The worst of it occured in difficult access places such as outlying parts of Indonesia. As a result the majority of footage came from places least hit such as Thailand but where Brits and Europeans were on holiday.

Again I've heard the scale of tsunami first hand. A close friends brother lives in Phuket. They had a party on Christmas Day, every one kipped at their house (all accommodation on first floor) with the exception of one couple, close friends of theirs, who didn't want to slum it and went to a luxury hut on sticks. They lost their lives and everyone else lived. Their stories weren't shown in every living room in the land.

The power of television. If we had cameras filming the war in Afghanistan live would we still be there?

[Keith]

Exactly as Posh said, the fact that this atrocity was filmed so much has made it so widely witnessed. Some of the images are iconic. You could even argue that had it been a grim, grey day, those images would not have attained such iconic status. There is almost a 'beauty' in the way the buildings collapsed, the colour of the explosion etc, set against that glorious blue sky. Additionally, we all witness it and try to imagine what would we be doing if we were trapped in there? The fear, the panic, probably long enough for the adrenaline to subside and some degree of acceptance? On Sunday there was a documentary featuring the phone calls made by the people who were trapped.

I'm not particularly a fan of the USA, but I don't think that the attack on the World Trade Centre is remembered 'because' it was in America.

[durhamshrimp]

I'd agree with those two statements. Didn't want to sound like I was making light of what happened on that day. Just that the perspective and relative value of human life seems skewed because of the reasons you've mentioned.

[George Dawes]

Exactly as Posh said, the fact that this atrocity was filmed so much has made it so widely witnessed. Some of the images are iconic. You could even argue that had it been a grim, grey day, those images would not have attained such iconic status. There is almost a 'beauty' in the way the buildings collapsed, the colour of the explosion etc, set against that glorious blue sky. Additionally, we all witness it and try to imagine what would we be doing if we were trapped in there? The fear, the panic, probably long enough for the adrenaline to subside and some degree of acceptance? On Sunday there was a documentary featuring the phone calls made by the people who were trapped.

I'm not particularly a fan of the USA, but I don't think that the attack on the World Trade Centre is remembered 'because' it was in America.

the documentary featuring the phone calls made by the people who were trapped. for me hit home than any other 9/11 documentary ive seen, in some respects they should have played the full version of some edited calls, but i suppose there family's should have the final say on that note

I'm not particularly a fan of the USA, but I don't think that the attack on the World Trade Centre is remembered 'because' it was in America.

i use to have that attitude of them a bit until i started going to America on holidays in recent years New York Las Vegas amazing place amazing people so friendly in someways it's like that advert for going on holiday to America, it's like being on a film set, as we've all grown up watching American TV shows films etc

[Star08]

The events of September 11th were horrific and shocking. Whilst the event and subsequent publicity has given a huge amount of coverage to the extremes of human behaviour, such as revenge, heroism, cowardice, bravery, stoicism, anger, fear etc, I find it interesting that so much focus is given to this one event, and I wonder if it impacts on people's perceptions of who terrorists are?

For instance until relatively recently we were on red alert about the threat of bombs from the IRA. Growing up I can remember several bomb scares, both at school and in Manchester City Centre, as well of course as successful bomb attacks. Travelling to Dundalk, on the border with Norther Ireland, as a child in 1973, I can remember being terrified in case a bomb went off, and was aware of the vigilance of those around me at all times. Many will remember attacks in Britain that killed or injured young and old alike, and of course in Northern Ireland the threat was even more noticeable from both Unionists and Republicans. Interestingly, a core of Americans at the time happily funded the IRA...

The Palestinians have been terrorized for decades by the Israelis, who are only in the area as a country because of the actions of Britain and America early in the last century.

Japan, Spain, France, Germany, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Russia, Chechnya, Indonesia, Congo, South Africa, etc, have all witnessed terrorism at some time. All our countries are capable of terrorising others...its not just the countries/people ours don't like that do it.

Here endeth my soap box lecture for the day

[Posh]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that.

What's changed in my view, firstly, is the move from political terrorism to belief-based terrorism; secondly the funding of terrorist movements, particularly the state-funding of organisations like Hezbollah, Hamas and, probably, Al Qaeda; and finally the broader-range of targets and equipment they can use to engage in acts of terror.

What hasn't changed is the Middle East and that will continue to stoke terrorism for a long time to come. Actions such as the obscene invasion of Gaza by Israel and the horrific acts it undertook, and the fundamentalism of the holocaust-deniers of Iran will mean that we'll have another generation of people alienated, pained, aggrieved and downright angry at the actions of others who are the next fodder for terrorist leaders.

[George Dawes]

i must admit israel does seriously need sorting out, ie. give the palestinians a state of there own, so then extremists cant use it as a excuse against the west


i wont say to much but the jewish people after WW2 should know how the palestinians feel to a extent although there no angels themselves

[Star08]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that.

What's changed in my view, firstly, is the move from political terrorism to belief-based terrorism; secondly the funding of terrorist movements, particularly the state-funding of organisations like Hezbollah, Hamas and, probably, Al Qaeda; and finally the broader-range of targets and equipment they can use to engage in acts of terror.

What hasn't changed is the Middle East and that will continue to stoke terrorism for a long time to come. Actions such as the obscene invasion of Gaza by Israel and the horrific acts it undertook, and the fundamentalism of the holocaust-deniers of Iran will mean that we'll have another generation of people alienated, pained, aggrieved and downright angry at the actions of others who are the next fodder for terrorist leaders.

i must admit israel does seriously need sorting out, ie. give the palestinians a state of there own, so then extremists cant use it as a excuse against the west. i wont say to much but the jewish people after WW2 should know how the palestinians feel to a extent although there no angels themselves

The difficulty now with the Middle East, and in particular Israel and the Palestinians, is that it's become so complex that there is no easy solution. Personally I'd love there to be a Palestinian state without an Israel (prior to the present state of Israel its thousands of years since there was an Israeli state), but in recreating Palestine many Israelis who've been born and lived there all there lives would have nowhere to go. A separate state for Palestinians would still create objections within the Israeli Zionist camp and I suspect there would still be objections from some groups of Palestinians. (I would like to point out that I am of Jewish descent myself and am in no way intending to be anti-Semitic.)

To pick up Posh's point I do wonder whether politically-based terrorism forms the basis for belief-based terrorism as political attempts are perhaps seen to have failed. Generally human beings turn to religion when there is insecurity and unrest; how much more so when a country's autonomy has been interfered with by other nations? The Middle East is a case in point, as is Northern Ireland. The West has had long term involvement in the Middle East and we and our descendants are likely to pay the price for some time to come.

[Posh]

To pick up Posh's point I do wonder whether politically-based terrorism forms the basis for belief-based terrorism as political attempts are perhaps seen to have failed. Generally human beings turn to religion when there is insecurity and unrest; how much more so when a country's autonomy has been interfered with by other nations? The Middle East is a case in point, as is Northern Ireland. The West has had long term involvement in the Middle East and we and our descendants are likely to pay the price for some time to come.

I had the interesting experience of studying politics in Northern Ireland from 1985-88 including a term on political terror. Theory in the classroom, practical on the streets. Removing any sentiment or bias and looking at hard evidence there is a big difference between organised political terror and religious or belief-based terror. The IRA were, for the most part, disciplined in its aims and objectives. In other words they were fighting for a specific goal or solution. As a result, if that goal could be achieved by other means and they could be persuaded of that then may cease their campaign, which they did (as did ETA - for a period, Shining Path, etc.). On the other hand the loyalists were largely disparate, indisciplined, feuding and significantly killed a far greater proportion of civilians than the IRA because they had no tangible goal other than to stay as they were.

Compare to that organisations as different as Al Qaeda and Aum Shinrikyo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_ ... kyo_subway) their only terror target seems to be creating terror itself against a broad enemy without any known end game. In both cases though martyrdom and the continuation of life in another place is a positive result in itself for the perpetrator helping fuel a cycle of never-ending violence. How do you neogtiate with that?

P.S. The only possible 'Westernised' political equivalent, possibly, of what is being perpetrated by Islamic terrorists is this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_of_the_deed. Scary though when done globally.

P.P.S. I'm off to buy a lolly and watch trash on telly.

[Keith]

P.S. The only possible 'Westernised' political equivalent, possibly, of what is being perpetrated by Islamic terrorists is this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_of_the_deed...

Baader-Meinhof?

[George Dawes]

one of the best books Ive ever read "the nemesis file" true story about a group of four SAS guys who went undercover in northern Ireland to fight a dirty war back was going through executing all IRA members, then burying them in secret locations but when they got to the top members Gerry Adams & McGuinness etc


the SAS said say the word will go in and take em out? our government thought about it had second thoughts saying "better the devil you know" at least they give 10 minute warnings before there bombs go off, getting at the next generation coming through could be ruthless



oh and the book is nothing what so ever to do with Andy McNab and the crap he writes

[Star08]

Compare to that organisations as different as Al Qaeda and Aum Shinrikyo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_ ... kyo_subway) their only terror target seems to be creating terror itself against a broad enemy without any known end game. In both cases though martyrdom and the continuation of life in another place is a positive result in itself for the perpetrator helping fuel a cycle of never-ending violence. How do you neogtiate with that?

I think I see the clarity of the distinction you're making now, though I still suspect that one is borne from the other. The reply I posted earlier was my second attempt...in my first edition (during which my modem lost the signal-humph!) I'd elaborated a little, basically saying when all else fails folks turn to the so called "higher powers" and thoughts of paradise. So, indeed, "how do you negotiate with that"? It could be seen as the language of the disempowered... "Religion is the opium of the masses" etc

I have enjoyed this thread, even though it is downright depressing...

[Posh]

one of the best books Ive ever read "the nemesis file" true story about a group of four SAS guys who went undercover in northern Ireland to fight a dirty war back was going through executing all IRA members, then burying them in secret locations but when they got to the top members Gerry Adams & McGuinness etc.

The SAS said say the word will go in and take em out? our government thought about it had second thoughts saying "better the devil you know" at least they give 10 minute warnings before there bombs go off, getting at the next generation coming through could be ruthless

oh and the book is nothing what so ever to do with Andy McNab and the crap he writes

Isn't the world a funny place. I was really intrigued by your post. Having lived in Northern Ireland and written my thesis on government policy on NI, and read loads of books in the course of my research then and since I'd never heard of anything that could form the basis of the book you describe. So I did a bit of research. The reviews of the book are fantastic and provoked incredible responses from its readers. e.g.

"The Nemesis File is an extremely important peice of work, that, had to be carried out."

"The Nemesis File brings home our worst fears! Governments that are above the law. Condemning thirld World Dictatorship's for their brutality, whilst acting in the exact same manner as those Dictators."


"Before reading The Nemesis File I was aware that there had been an alleged shoot to kill policy in Northern Ireland but I thought that the SAS men involved always had reason to suspect that they were facing armed IRA operatives. To learn that Paul Bruce's unit carried out cold-blooded killings is truly shocking and I am left wondering if the same thing could happen again, I guess it could. If there is anything encouraging about human nature in this book it is that the four SAS men involved felt such revulsion and struggled to cope with the nature of their work and I hope the authorities have learnt from this. This book deserves to have the widest readership possible because the events it describes are disturbing in the extreme".

"I don't believe it! This book is FANTASTIC and has shown me just what the Governments are all about. This is a World's best selling book for God's sake!!!"

But then of course you dig deeper.

From the old Royal Ulster Constabulary website

"THE NEMESIS FILE: A TRUE STORY OF AN EXECUTION SQUAD
The Royal Ulster Constabulary has for some time been making enquiries into alleged serious criminal offences, primarily as a result of allegations made in the book "The Nemisis File: the true story of an Execution Squad" which is published by Blake Publishing.

As part of our continuing enquiries, and having regard to the seriousness of the allegations made in the book, the book's author was arrested by RUC officers under the Prevention of Terrorism Act and was interviewed at Castlereagh Police Station, Belfast.

Enquiries into the matter have now been completed and we are satisfied that the allegations contained in the book are not true in fact or substance and this includes an assertion that the author was at some time a member of the Special Air Services Regiment. The RUC is satisfied that the author has not been concerned, either directly or indirectly, in the commission of any serious criminal offence whilst serving in the Province during the period February _ June 1972 when he served as a vehicle mechanic with the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers. The RUC considers the book "The Nemesis File: the true story of an Execution Squad" as a work of fiction and accordingly the investigation is now closed".

According to the Belfast Telegraph and other press reports its a complete work of fiction by a former Army mechanic. Seemingly a good read though.

[shrimper]

I have a friend around whom I have to be very careful when he talks about books.

He still (despite my hints to look a little deeper into it - I only hint so as not to upset him, he is a very dear friend) believes that the basis of the Da Vinci Code is a factual, historical account.

[ezz]

I have a friend around whom I have to be very careful when he talks about books.

He still (despite my hints to look a little deeper into it - I only hint so as not to upset him, he is a very dear friend) believes that the basis of the Da Vinci Code is a factual, historical account.

He's not alone, I too believe there's a big puzzle going on round loads of pieces of art and little boxes that hold the map to a cool ancient hiding place.
Same with National Treasure too, our ancestors loved these crazy worldwide treasure hunts.