MFC and the VAT fiasco

[redrobo]

First of all I do not understand the rules on VAT and in particular who pays what, to whom and by whom....

However it is clear that we've found ourselves in a mess possibly through no fault on our part.

It has been reported that a 3rd party has to refund us the VAT on an item or items so that we can pay the VAT people ourselves.

I don't get why this 3rd party can't simply pay the VAT direct to the authorities.

So who are this 3rd party that appear to be holding monies due that is keeping our club under an embargo....

I could and probably am wrong in my assessment as to who this 3rd party are but here's my thoughts.

It may be the new kit supplier who wants payment up front....

It could be whoever supplies the club with beer etc or even product for hospitality....

It could be the coach company who we've used for numerous seasons or even a hotel group who we use on away games....

It could and possibly is non of the above BUT the figure involved must be substantial for the club being unable to settle the monies due now and to wait for the 3rd party to refund us the money.

OR am I so far off the actual identity of this 3rd party.....which is probably the most likely....

[Billy bodger]

The 3rd party cannot keep money paid to it by mistake, any reputable company or individual would have sorted it out by now, they must by law pay it back.

Now a bit of time has passed and as of last Fri from what Rod said it has not been paid back. I don’t think the third party can just pass on the money to VAT authority’s it has to be paid back to pay the VAT bill. Anyone in business on here who have had the same problem and how long did it take to sort out?

The players must have been thinking what else and I need stability not this. You cannot blame them for not signing new contracts and wanting to wait and see what other options are out there.

As fans it’s all very annoying redrobo, all very annoying and unsettling.

[BerlinWaller]

I think it was to do with the shirt sponsorship

[black morse]

I think it was to do with the shirt sponsorship

How does that work? Surely the shirt sponsors pay us to display their brand therefore any VAT on the transaction would be paid by them. Or am I being thick?

[BerlinWaller]

I think it was to do with the shirt sponsorship

How does that work? Surely the shirt sponsors pay us to display their brand therefore any VAT on the transaction would be paid by them. Or am I being thick?

Maybe they provide the club with a service instead of a cash payment? Remember that we couldn't get a sponsor until late in the summer.

This rumour still needs to be fact checked by the powers that be.

[fulwoodshrimp]

Is it me or does this story not ring true? How much vat do we owe? It must be a substantial sum or surely it would have been paid by now.

[BerlinWaller]

Is it me or does this story not ring true? How much vat do we owe? It must be a substantial sum or surely it would have been paid by now.

The Sponsor needs to pay the VAT

[marky No.1]

On the other thread Kenh says that £26,000 isn't enough to pay HMRC in VAT owed.

£150K plus VAT is £30K VAT.

Who have we paid at least £150K to and wrongly paid VAT on top.

My first thought is the sliver of land next to the pub?

I also agree with BW that our shirt sponsor is a consultancy company and may well be the 3rd party?

[Gone_Shrimping]

On the other thread Kenh says that £26,000 isn't enough to pay HMRC in VAT owed.

£150K plus VAT is £30K VAT.

Who have we paid at least £150K to and wrongly paid VAT on top.

My first thought is the sliver of land next to the pub?

I also agree with BW that our shirt sponsor is a consultancy company and may well be the 3rd party?

It is amazing that the board have allowed this V.A.T. issue to escalate into an embargo with all the bad publicity that brings together with the probability of it enabling any players we wanted to retain going elsewhere as well as discouraging any decent new players from joining Morecambe. Can't even blame Jason for this one either.

[fulwoodshrimp]

I am no fan of Jason but I think sometimes he is being made a scapegoat. He isn’t to blame for the vat fiasco nor is he to blame for the mix up over games required to be played by a couple of players to trigger a contract extension. Surely the departing chief executive or the board are responsible for these errors?

[Old Man Kensey]

The utter lack of updates from the club must be having an effect on Season Ticket sales.
I know quite a few that are holding off waiting for some positive news (or even negative come to that), some even happy to pay the extra £50 after the early bird scheme has finished.

[shrimpsontoast]

Seems like quite an odd contract term if the extension is contingent on a player playing a certain number of games. You’d potentially just get players turning up with sick notes if they didn’t want to stay. And you potentially put yourself in the position where you think about not picking the best team each week if you have one eye on next year (I.e you know you are going to lose better players and so you decide that you need to try to lock in some of the mediocre ones). From the player’s perspective, if you’ve had a stellar year and played lots of games, you are probably going to want to keep your options open. If on the other hand you’ve been rubbish, that clause is hardly going to guarantee you game time. So I’m struggling to see why both parties would agree to that really. I wonder therefore if that’s how it actually works? Maybe people have got the wrong end of the stick.

[Redalert1970]

Totally agree Old Man Kensey

Why would people pay too something that might not exisit next season

Would you pay £500 for a holiday if you knew the holiday company were in trouble

[KenH]

Seems like quite an odd contract term if the extension is contingent on a player playing a certain number of games. You’d potentially just get players turning up with sick notes if they didn’t want to stay. And you potentially put yourself in the position where you think about not picking the best team each week if you have one eye on next year (I.e you know you are going to lose better players and so you decide that you need to try to lock in some of the mediocre ones). From the player’s perspective, if you’ve had a stellar year and played lots of games, you are probably going to want to keep your options open. If on the other hand you’ve been rubbish, that clause is hardly going to guarantee you game time. So I’m struggling to see why both parties would agree to that really. I wonder therefore if that’s how it actually works? Maybe people have got the wrong end of the stick.

Apparently such clauses are common as "triggers" for extensions, etc., basically to either keep or sell players who've been successful. I remember Jim mentioning similar a few times with players we were wanting to keep or sell, that they'd been played to "trigger" the clause. It explains why sometimes a player only comes on for the last few minutes of a game and barely has time to kick the ball. Some contract extensions will be "triggered" on starts, some on appearances, etc. Yes, it can result in some awkward/stroppy players refusing to play or calling in sick, but I think most players are professional and don't play that kind of silly game. Of course it can also work both ways where a player wants to play to trigger the clause to continue their contract, but the club don't want to trigger it and want rid, so don't play them even when we ideally need to!

At the end of the day, the club and player (their agent really) are free to negotiate whatever contract they want. If they're coming her on less than good wages and expect to be off and away as soon as their form improves or their injury problems are solved, or they get fit (or whatever reason they were happy to come for low wages), then they're not going to want to be trapped here for another season if they know they can move elsewhere for better prospects/conditions/wages, etc. Different ages, experience levels, etc will mean different players want different things, some want security for a longer period, some want exposure and intend to move quickly, etc.

[Born again Bill]

The utter lack of updates from the club must be having an effect on Season Ticket sales.
I know quite a few that are holding off waiting for some positive news (or even negative come to that), some even happy to pay the extra £50 after the early bird scheme has finished.

That’s exactly what I’m doing OMK ! . Freez , please get a member of the board on your podcast tomorrow and let them know the silence is killing ticket sales ! And as Rod said on last weeks pod “without the fans there will be no club” . It’s not looking good rod !!!

[marky No.1]

Not the only ones in trouble with HMRC

https://news.sky.com/story/john-barnes- ... s-13122296

[KenH]

Not the only ones in trouble with HMRC

https://news.sky.com/story/john-barnes- ... s-13122296

I hope HMRC go after his personal assets for the tax money he pocketed!

Being banned as a director is a toothless "punishment".

He needs to be hit in his pocket.

[Billy bodger]

Worcester Warriors just been sold to a new consortium. Another owner for them!!

[captain sparkle]

Not the only ones in trouble with HMRC

https://news.sky.com/story/john-barnes- ... s-13122296

I hope HMRC go after his personal assets for the tax money he pocketed!

Being banned as a director is a toothless "punishment".

He needs to be hit in his pocket.

I don't think that's always possible, specially if they've declared bancruptcy. Locally, recently, we have had somebody whose previous company went into liquidation some 10 years ago, & he declared bancruptcy, that's just been appointed director of 2 companies, doing the same line of work!

[fulwoodshrimp]

I'm sorry but I think it's time for the board to come clean. How much vat money do the club owe to HMRC? Staying silent isn't an option now- the sale of season tickets will be poor, the manager will be unable to sign players and indeed we could not only lose some good players but also the manager. The very existence of our club is under threat. Silence gives the impression that we owe a very large amount of vat and fans are due an explanation rather than the board hide behind a wall of silence.

[Gone_Shrimping]

According to the Local Guardian , the Embargo is still in place.

This is a major problem and not just a little clerical error.

Dark days indeed for the club.

[RedRedWine]

A friend surmised to me, "do you think the deadline for early-bird season tickets has been shortened in order to settle the VAT?" - certainly looks that way.

This thread opened with:

First of all I do not understand the rules on VAT and in particular who pays what, to whom and by whom

It should have been left there in terms of people trying to understand exactly what has gone on and the nature of the transaction - the only people that truly know are the BOD and the administrative staff at the club. Subsequent speculation is not helping the situation, nor other peoples lack of understanding.

The only thing that matters, is that Morecambe FC Limited has output VAT liability outstanding to HMRC - and as a result we are still operating under a transfer embargo. We were told that this matter would be resolved ASAP - that was almost a month ago; the situation persists.

[Keith]

It should have been left there in terms of people trying to understand exactly what has gone on and the nature of the transaction - the only people that truly know are the BOD and the administrative staff at the club. Subsequent speculation is not helping the situation, nor other peoples lack of understanding.

The only thing that matters, is that Morecambe FC Limited has output VAT liability outstanding to HMRC - and as a result we are still operating under a transfer embargo. We were told that this matter would be resolved ASAP - that was almost a month ago; the situation persists.

'the only people that truly know are the BOD and they aren't telling us anything'.

'We were told that this matter would be resolved ASAP - that was almost a month ago; the situation persists, so that was clearly bollocks'.

If the club choose not to tell fans WTF is going on, with a matter that has the potential to be existential, they can't be surprised when people speculate and, more importantly, keep their money in their pocket.

[RedRedWine]

I meant in terms of speculating from the perspective of people having no idea what they are talking about regarding VAT, so it comes across as completely incoherent bollocks - rather than just plain old regular bollocks.

I agree with the bold bits that you added to my points - to add to this, the only reason we know what we do at the moment is because EFL sanctioned the club; this will have been going on long before the sanction was imposed (the club noted in their update that they had been in consultation with the EFL and HMRC regarding the matter). The club and the board would have been fully aware of looming situation (and the forthcoming points deduction which has now been applied, which they'd entered into pointless arbitration proceedings in relation to) prior to releasing their official statement - it was not a surprise to them and coincided with the one released by the EFL. I wonder if they knew at the Fans Forum on 23rd February whilst answering questions about the clubs financial health? I wonder if Ged knew that the team would soon be deducted 3 points, and also the club was about to be placed under a transfer embargo? It seems unfair if he wasn't.

I have not renewed my season ticket, and don't plan on doing so until we have some clarity regarding just what on earth is going on at the football club. We are routinely treated like mushrooms and kept in the dark over matters that have serious consequences, and are expected to carry on without questioning anything.

[KenH]

I meant in terms of speculating from the perspective of people having no idea what they are talking about regarding VAT, so it comes across as completely incoherent bollocks - rather than just plain old regular bollocks.

Graham's statement re the VAT didn't help as it was basically nonsensical. I've been a chartered accountant for 40 years and couldn't make head nor tail of his "explanation". So even for someone who works with VAT on a daily basis as his day job, I found the "explanation" as you say, completely incoherent bollocks.

I know the Board have been having a hard time for several years now with the never ending succession of ownership fiascos, but they aren't helping themselves when it comes to communication, or lack of it, with the fans. And yes, I know that some things have to be kept confidential, but there was nothing confidential about giving a more understandable/coherent explanation of what caused the VAT problem, how it will be resolved, timescales, etc., - no need to name names as to the supplier involved (although it's openly known to those with any kind of contact within the club as it's basically a leaky sieve for confidential information for "those in the know" which is also very poor management to let leaks happen.