Training Pitches

[Keith]

John McGuinness hates football! He did come to a game a while back because it was his lad's birthday and he wanted to go to a game with his mates, but he's old enough to go on his own now, so I doubt if we'll see John back down there without a decent payment!

I don't like boxing, but whose the lad who was world champion at a 'lighter than Tyson' weight? Boxed in a pair of Morecambe FC shorts? He'd be a good ambassador for the club as he's a fan. Tyson is a football fan too, so would probably come down if invited.

I think he's a Man Utd fan, so all the plastic Scousers who re-appeared last season my need to lower their eyes and bite a lip though?

[Posh]

£240K guide price + £100K to update the pitches so around £350K I doubt the club or the community scheme had that type of money and we never used it enough anyway.

Yep, never used enough.

Apart from school holidays when it was used all day every day from 9am to 5pm by dozens of kids.
Apart from when the Service to Youth League used it all day Sunday in Winter.
Apart from when it was by the Academy teams every day.
Apart from when it was used for walking football and other Morecambe FC in the Community groups.

Losing the pitches was a disaster for the local community and the subsequent closure of L&M Colleges outdoor pitches has denied hundreds of kids all year round facilities for training.

The biggest problem with the pitches were the ‘businessmen’ who originally owned it. Their business plans showed revenues of nearly £1,000 a day (written by university students), so they thought they’d cash in with a private business. If it had been part of the club then everyone could have benefited.

[KenH]

£240K guide price + £100K to update the pitches so around £350K I doubt the club or the community scheme had that type of money and we never used it enough anyway.

Yep, never used enough.

Apart from school holidays when it was used all day every day from 9am to 5pm by dozens of kids.
Apart from when the Service to Youth League used it all day Sunday in Winter.
Apart from when it was by the Academy teams every day.
Apart from when it was used for walking football and other Morecambe FC in the Community groups.

Losing the pitches was a disaster for the local community and the subsequent closure of L&M Colleges outdoor pitches has denied hundreds of kids all year round facilities for training.

The biggest problem with the pitches were the ‘businessmen’ who originally owned it. Their business plans showed revenues of nearly £1,000 a day (written by university students), so they thought they’d cash in with a private business. If it had been part of the club then everyone could have benefited.

Being busy and bringing in enough cash to cover costs are two completely different things. Many a financial basket case appear to be busy.

If such a facility was so important/necessary locally, why didn't the local council provide it, even moreso if it was financially viable?

[Posh]

Your connecting two different things, someone said it wasn’t busy and I showed how it was.

Separately I then said two ‘business geniuses’ thought they could make a fortune out of it and so borrowed heavily to do so. If the pitches and block had been debt-free they would have made good money. It was profitable before debt costs. They also could have had even more usage but the debt costs meant they were stupid with pricing. STYL were quoted one figure to use the pitches and then given another higher figure a week before for U10s football (£650). They rightly sacked it off and got Mossgate for a fraction of the cost but had to spread their day out.

The whole debacle with the pitches was endemic of the pisspoor way the new ground was planned and financed. And why the separate company collapsed into administration.

[redrobo]

Ever wonder where some people get their info from.....

[RedRedWine]

Interesting that the club are yet to make an official comment about the Tyson Fury purchase. Personally I'm in two minds about this.

It's brilliant news for the community that the facility is going to be brought back into public use - and exciting to see how Tyson Fury developes the site.

But.... I can't help but feel it's ultimately not a great situation for the club. The facility shares access and buildings with the club, for example the match day control room was relocated from the community block and has since been 'temporarily' housed in one of the match day hospitality suites. The land that's been purchased backs right onto the perimeter wall of Mazuma PARK, so any plans to develop that side of the ground in the future for commercial (there were lofty ambitions to put offices down that side at one stage) have now all but gone, which IMO makes the club less appealing to any would be owner.

It was only late in May that the club publicised a desire to bring the facility back into local ownership - which ironically has happened, although this is surely not what they had in mind? An article on the clubs website outlined that match and grant funding was being put together, lead by Morecambe FC Community Sports - so it sounded like a bid from the club and partners was imminent, but it looks like that did not materialise.

I don't understand how people can't see the benefits of the club owning this facility, given the trouble it routinely has in finding suitable training facilities, how they operate an academy at Lancaster & Morecambe College (which they pay to use) and are limited to the services and activities that are provided by MFCCS. Interesting too Lancaster City Council and basket case being brought up in the same post; an organisation that chose to build a rarely used gravity tower (the only one in Europe.... wonder why?) despite a report indicating a lack of astro pitches locally. Junior Reds, the clubs young supporters club, is now pretty much defunct again - partly driven by a lack of facilities (before closure they used the pitches regularly).

From a club perspective, its vital that they can build a positive relationship with Tyson Fury. From what I have read here and elsewhere, people seem to be putting two and two together in terms of opportunities for the club with Tysons profile.... But what's in it for him? What does he have to gain being associated to Morecambe FC? Despite his proud association with the town, he hasn't shown much interest in the football team previously. In the social media posts I've seen so far he's talking about building a facility for the community, and giving the young people of the town the chance to shine.... Presumably because he feels that opportunity doesn't currently exist. If that's the case, what makes people think he'll want the club involved in his academy (something I've seen mentioned) given the club has operated their own academy for a number of years and so far haven't managed to produce a single player good enough for the first team since we've been in the FL who is from the local area?

I think we need to understand more of the detail before deciding if it's good or bad news for the club.... But for the local area as a whole this is great news IMO, particularly as a common fear was that this facility might in time be lost entirely to some sort of housing development.

[RedRedWine]

Ever wonder where some people get their info from.....

An irony detector..... what a brilliant idea!

[redrobo]

Rather than question Tyson's motives let's be thankful that it is back in local ownership and wait and see how he wishes to progress HIS project of providing something for the local community. Because he hasn't shown an interest in OUR club before that doesn't mean that the future could be different.

I prefer to wait and see before passing judgement or questioning his motives...after all it may work our for the benefit of all parties....

[redrobo]

Ever wonder where some people get their info from.....

An irony detector..... what a brilliant idea!

[RedRedWine]

Rather than question Tyson's motives let's be thankful that it is back in local ownership and wait and see how he wishes to progress HIS project of providing something for the local community. Because he hasn't shown an interest in OUR club before that doesn't mean that the future could be different.

I prefer to wait and see before passing judgement or questioning his motives...after all it may work our for the benefit of all parties....

I'm not questioning Tyson Fury has anything but the best intentions for this venture... Not sure how you could come to any other conclusion based on what I wrote(?)... only that this might not be great news for the club, which seems to be everyone's default position. I'd like to hear more details first before deciding one way or the other.

Regardless of it being good or bad news for the club, it is fantastic news for the local community in my opinion.

[KenH]

Your connecting two different things, someone said it wasn’t busy and I showed how it was.

Separately I then said two ‘business geniuses’ thought they could make a fortune out of it and so borrowed heavily to do so. If the pitches and block had been debt-free they would have made good money. It was profitable before debt costs. They also could have had even more usage but the debt costs meant they were stupid with pricing. STYL were quoted one figure to use the pitches and then given another higher figure a week before for U10s football (£650). They rightly sacked it off and got Mossgate for a fraction of the cost but had to spread their day out.

The whole debacle with the pitches was endemic of the pisspoor way the new ground was planned and financed. And why the separate company collapsed into administration.

Any business will be profitable if you ignore the fixed costs, i.e. the cost of the land, the cost of the equipment, the cost of the building materials, cost of surveyors, planning, etc. You can't just forget all that. Someone has paid it, (or borrowed to pay it) and they need a return on their investment, if not just to pay the interest on loans etc.

[RedRedWine]

I might be wrong KenH, but I was under the impression that PMG Leisure was a sustainable business at EBITDA before being placed into administration due to ambiguity of the ownership of the company (with loans outstanding held against the assets of the company).... despite being heavily leveraged in debt. It was a surprise that the administrators opted against continuing the business as a going concern.

Personally, I don't see how the administors have operated in the best interest of the creditor in this case. Indeed I think the objective in closing the facility was to force the clubs hand into a sale. After their fees, I wonder how much they've actually recovered for the creditor? We know the guide price of the auction (circa £240k) is nowhere near the £627k that was outstanding on the loan.

[BerlinWaller]

Didn't PMG say that the separate company was created so they could mortgage the land to fund some of the deficit needed to complete the Stadium?

Agree with Posh, the whole thing was a shit show but this it what happens when you let a post man build a Stadium. I often watch the videos with MD in his club trackie, glasses on top of his head and smug grin. Unreal how he got away with it.

[KenH]

I might be wrong KenH, but I was under the impression that PMG Leisure was a sustainable business at EBITDA before being placed into administration due to ambiguity of the ownership of the company (with loans outstanding held against the assets of the company).... despite being heavily leveraged in debt. It was a surprise that the administrators opted against continuing the business as a going concern.

Personally, I don't see how the administors have operated in the best interest of the creditor in this case. Indeed I think the objective in closing the facility was to force the clubs hand into a sale. After their fees, I wonder how much they've actually recovered for the creditor? We know the guide price of the auction (circa £240k) is nowhere near the £627k that was outstanding on the loan.

PMG Leisure Limited showed a history of losses prior to administration.

The bank sold the debt and it was the new debt holders who brought in the administrators, so no one knows how much the bank lost and how much (if any) the new debt holders will lose. Banks will often sell loans at massive loss just to get something back.

[Gone_Shrimping]

Was any real attempt ever made to market the gym ?

[Andy D]

Was any real attempt ever made to market the gym ?

i think it did for the first year?

but remember thinking it was small and there were way to much competition at the time back then with VVV, total fitness(3-1-5), Saltayre with better facilities, way more superior.

[RedRedWine]

Looking at the administrators proposal, EBITDA (earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation) shows that PMG Leisure was operating profitably, particularly in the last 12 months of trading. It therefore made little sense to cease trading entirely IMO, unless the club (biggest customer) no longer wanted to continue with existing arrangements to base their academy and match day control room there... But I don't believe this to be the case... The closure was an attempt to force the clubs hand, and it failed when the club were able to operate without the facility.

In closing the pitches income and profit (50%+ GP according to latest management accounts) became non-existent. This has also increased dilapidations (circa £100k to get the site usable again) which in turn has impacted the sale price. They don't do this marvellous work for free.... So I find it hard to believe the loan note holder has benefitted at all from this transaction. Spare a thought for PMG, he was a personal guarantor for part of the loan, which he appears to have settled around the time a contingent liability appeared in Morecambe FC accounts. Diego really did pull his pants down.

[KenH]

Spare a thought for PMG, he was a personal guarantor for part of the loan, which he appears to have settled around the time a contingent liability appeared in Morecambe FC accounts. Diego really did pull his pants down.

That sounds as if MFC itself is on the hook to repay it to PMG at some stage?

[Posh]

Your connecting two different things, someone said it wasn’t busy and I showed how it was.

Separately I then said two ‘business geniuses’ thought they could make a fortune out of it and so borrowed heavily to do so. If the pitches and block had been debt-free they would have made good money. It was profitable before debt costs. They also could have had even more usage but the debt costs meant they were stupid with pricing. STYL were quoted one figure to use the pitches and then given another higher figure a week before for U10s football (£650). They rightly sacked it off and got Mossgate for a fraction of the cost but had to spread their day out.

The whole debacle with the pitches was endemic of the pisspoor way the new ground was planned and financed. And why the separate company collapsed into administration.

Any business will be profitable if you ignore the fixed costs, i.e. the cost of the land, the cost of the equipment, the cost of the building materials, cost of surveyors, planning, etc. You can't just forget all that. Someone has paid it, (or borrowed to pay it) and they need a return on their investment, if not just to pay the interest on loans etc.

Ken - RRW has clearly pointed out the flaws in your argument much more eloquently than me. The cost of building the thing is irrelevant, it’s all about the debt. £672,000 of debt at 10%+ pa was never sustainable. If PMG had included the costs of the pitches and the block into a better designed and less expensive build this would never have happened.

[Posh]

Ever wonder where some people get their info from.....

As you ask Neil as you love questioning the origin of the information.

Mark Dixon told me that they had commissioned students from Lancaster University’s Management School to do the assessment of pricing and income models for the pitches and gym. Later he told me the figure for the pitch income. I questioned it given the development at Mossgate and plans for Heysham High, which he dismissed. This was at the temporary office at Riversway House.

The figures for the debt come from Companies House and are easy to find, as RRW explained.

As for STYL, I was the manager of a team and one of those with fixtures on the pitches. We got an email from the Secretary telling us the details in order to explain the change of location.

[BerlinWaller]

Tyson has had a huge muriel depicting his win over Wilder painted on the wall in his Tyson Fury Foundation Gym.

https://twitter.com/MichaelBensonn/stat ... 48130?s=19

[BerlinWaller]

It looks like the gym was built as well as the rest of the ground.

https://twitter.com/WBCBoxing/status/13 ... 76929?s=19

[marky No.1]

Lol, maybe didn't take into account the world champ would be smashing it

[marky No.1]

Venture caravan park has been sold to an Irishman, that will be the end of all the existing statics on there, wouldnt be surprised if he goes knocking on Tysons door next

[Born again Bill]

Venture caravan park has been sold to an Irishman, that will be the end of all the existing statics on there, wouldnt be surprised if he goes knocking on Tysons door next

I think i read somewhere Fury was looking to move down south lock, stock and barrel so this could be a possibility or maybe the club should be touching base sooner rather than later .
Surely its the most sensible thing to do to try and get this section back under the clubs control !