O/T If you thought things were bad

[Posh]

With the world in financial chaos, countries going bankrupt, banks collapsing, a growing recession and the fear of unemployment it is easy to think it couldn't get worse. Well perhaps its time to think again. When we live beyond our financial means we can always adjust our spending. When we live beyond the resources of the planet how easy is it to adjust? And what kind of crisis, like the financial one we're going through, will it take for our political leaders to act?

I don't want to be a purveyor of gloom or the starter of yet another long discussion thread between me and Keith but I thought the article below might be of interest.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... edhabitats

[slackAlice]

He claims that Gaia's self-regulation will likely prevent any extraordinary runaway effects that wipe out life itself, but that humans will survive and be "culled and, I hope, refined."

According to James Lovelock, by 2040, the world population of more than six billion will have been culled by floods, drought and famine. The people of Southern Europe, as well as South-East Asia, will be fighting their way into countries such as Canada, Australia and Britain. He says that "By 2040, parts of the Sahara desert will have moved into middle Europe. We are talking about Paris - as far north as Berlin. In Britain we will escape because of our oceanic position." Lovelock believes it is too late to repair the damage. "If you take the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predictions, then by 2040 every summer in Europe will be as hot as it was in 2003 - between 110F and 120F. It is not the death of people that is the main problem, it is the fact that the plants can't grow - there will be almost no food grown in Europe. We are about to take an evolutionary step and my hope is that the species will emerge stronger. It would be hubris to think humans as they now are God's chosen race."[25]

I personally think James Lovelock had it about right with his 'Gaia Hypothesis' - the universe will survive but there won't be many or any form of life left as we steadily destroy it. There isn't the political will or universal support to REALLY change our habits. It's probably too late anyway; Generally speaking 'Humans' want cheap travel / goods - cheap everything and could'nt care less how they get them. Its inevitable that the earth will go through future changes in its evolution and like 'ice ages' we won't be able to hack it , individuals recycling paper / cardboard / tins etc might help a little but its too little too late. The hubris or arrogance that we'll just get more sophisticated technology and somehow 'change' everything , like the weather is breath-taking, I think I once read that if the whole universe from the begining of time was represented on a 24 hour clock , human life would be represented as a 'second'.

[Vinny]

I couldn't agree more. It's very all very worrying and scary if you stop to think about it too long. Yes, the least we can do as individuals is try to minimise our own impact, but most of us are helpless to affect the masses, which is one of the main reasons why I follow football and MFC, as it is a departure from the 'real world'. It is sport, it is fun, and as a spectator at least, it is a chance to forget the troubles of the world and grasp a few moments of pleasurable entertainment in life.
We just need the points But when we get them the world seems a much better place.

[Aspers]

They want to try and invade Australia,

HA!

We'd just send our Sheilas to sort em.

[The Marksman]

Why would they want to invade Australia? It's already a water-free dust bowl.

[Keith]

...or the starter of yet another long discussion thread between me and Keith

Strangely perhaps, this is one subject where I don't have particularly strong views, or at least, non that are likely to be too controversial!

I don't think individual 'lifestyle' changes will account for much, re-cycling for example, is better than not, but is hardly going to stop the world going in to melt down. 4x4's are the devils car, but my 2l Land Rover is more economical than my previous car, a 2l Hyundia Coupe which I drove faster. I go on long haul holidays (bad) then spend my money in developing countries, which goes towards improving the health, education and well being of the people who live there (good).

What we need to do is ensure developed countries make it worth while for developing countries to stop their deforestation. If Haiti received investment to develop agriculture & tourism, they may be able to help produce some of the food that the planet needs, help with CO2 problems and improve the lifestyle and life expectancy of the people who live there.

I do have one question for the Guardian doom mongers though. Why will sea levels rise when the ice shelf melts? Put some ice cubes in a glass, fill the glass to the rim, let the ice melt. The water doesn't overflow (a body in water displaces it's own mass). Only ice that is currently on land will contribute to the sea level raising. So, either I'm missing something fundamental or the doom sayers are talking bollocks in one of their key arguments regarding climate change, which raises doubt about other areas of the argument.

[Aspers]

Starts chant and repeats incessantly

" HERE WE GO HERE WE GO HERE WE GO

[ezz]

...or the starter of yet another long discussion thread between me and Keith

Strangely perhaps, this is one subject where I don't have particularly strong views, or at least, non that are likely to be too controversial!

I don't think individual 'lifestyle' changes will account for much, re-cycling for example, is better than not, but is hardly going to stop the world going in to melt down. 4x4's are the devils car, but my 2l Land Rover is more economical than my previous car, a 2l Hyundia Coupe which I drove faster. I go on long haul holidays (bad) then spend my money in developing countries, which goes towards improving the health, education and well being of the people who live there (good).

What we need to do is ensure developed countries make it worth while for developing countries to stop their deforestation. If Haiti received investment to develop agriculture & tourism, they may be able to help produce some of the food that the planet needs, help with CO2 problems and improve the lifestyle and life expectancy of the people who live there.

I do have one question for the Guardian doom mongers though. Why will sea levels rise when the ice shelf melts? Put some ice cubes in a glass, fill the glass to the rim, let the ice melt. The water doesn't overflow (a body in water displaces it's own mass). Only ice that is currently on land will contribute to the sea level raising. So, either I'm missing something fundamental or the doom sayers are talking bollocks in one of their key arguments regarding climate change, which raises doubt about other areas of the argument.

I asked that same question to my science teacher about 4 years ago, there's no way of knowing for sure. Scientists would have to discover if there is more volume of ice under the sea or more ice above the sea. One will decrease sea levels one will increase them. As i said there is absolutely no way of knowing for sure, but is it a risk worth taking?

[Phoenix]

Green issues went out of the window this morning with the post.

I was looking forward to the letter from my building society advising me of the cut in interest rates and a monthly saving on my mortgage. I'd calculated my payments should drop by about £15. The letter came today with an interest rate cut so tiny it wasn't worth the stamp on the envelope. The new rate was accompanied by a well pharsed explanation.

My local well behaved building society are being forced to contribute to the financial losses of a minority of tossers at HBOS. So instead of my mortgage being cut by £15, I get a £3 reduction which means I am directly contributing £12/month to support a bunch of wheeler dealers that don't give a toss about me but are more interested in their own bank balance.

Pissed off? Damned right I am after choosing my financial institutions carefully.

[Posh]

I do have one question for the Guardian doom mongers though. Why will sea levels rise when the ice shelf melts?

Because the Antarctic and Greenland ice shelves are on land. If you put a load of ice in a glass when they melt the water rises. There is enough frozen water on the continent of Antartica to raise the seas by rather a lot - at least enough to say goodbye to a lot of London and the South East.

When we've realised we REALLY need to do something drastic it will most likely be too late. After that there will hardly any food - animal or vegetarian, fuel or other resources. Then we'll be hoping for things on a scale like the Black Death that wiped out nearly half the known world's population because it may be the only thing that helps humanity continue. Bearing in mind the population of the world has more than doubled in my life time those events are more than possible in my lifetime.

[Number 1]

There's a lot of hypocrisy about these kind of issues. I'm not saying you're all hypocrites by any stretch of the imagination; actually I'm not referring to anyone here, but as an example, what about the likes of Formula 1? I bet a lot of people who express concern about the earth's resources etc are Formula 1 fans, and I can't think of anything more wasteful than a bunch of cars using a shit load of fuel being driven by a load of overpriviledged multimillionaires. What does Formula 1 actually do for anyone? Should be banned if you ask me.

[Phoenix]

What does Formula 1 actually do for anyone?

A lot of the safety technology we take for granted in modern cars was originally designed for the race track, ABS and EBD as examples.

[Keith]

Only ice that is currently on land will contribute to the sea level raising...

Because the Antarctic and Greenland ice shelves are on land. If you put a load of ice in a glass when they melt the water rises. There is enough frozen water on the continent of Antartica to raise the seas by rather a lot - at least enough to say goodbye to a lot of London and the South East.

If you put a load of ice in a glass when they melt the water rises.

Err... yes... That's because, when you add the ice to the water in the first place, you are ADDING something, so obviously it rises! However, when the ice melts, the water level will remain static because the volume hasn't changed (again). The water level will not go UP when the ice melts, whether the ice is above or below the water level. Most of the world's ice shelves are already floating, even though they are above land (clearly, every ocean on the planet is already "above land")

Therefore, as I said before, only ice that is currently ON land, and then drains into the oceans, will cause any sea level rise.

[Sammy h]

Green issues went out of the window this morning with the post.

I was looking forward to the letter from my building society advising me of the cut in interest rates and a monthly saving on my mortgage. I'd calculated my payments should drop by about £15. The letter came today with an interest rate cut so tiny it wasn't worth the stamp on the envelope. The new rate was accompanied by a well pharsed explanation.

My local well behaved building society are being forced to contribute to the financial losses of a minority of tossers at HBOS. So instead of my mortgage being cut by £15, I get a £3 reduction which means I am directly contributing £12/month to support a bunch of wheeler dealers that don't give a toss about me but are more interested in their own bank balance.

Pissed off? Damned right I am after choosing my financial institutions carefully.

After the base rate cut and the libor rate too you should be saving much more than that, have a look at switching it

[Keith]

As i said there is absolutely no way of knowing for sure, but is it a risk worth taking?

I'm not saying it is, or it isn't. Simply questioning if the argument is fundamentally flawed? Is half of London really at risk?


Put some water in a glass, mark where I filled to.

Add some ice, water level obviously rises because there is more in the glass than before.

Having marked the 'sea level', let it melt

Ice gets less...

...water level remains the same.

Drink cold water, realise that the autofocus was aimed in between the glass and the paper

Not making light of the whole problem, just not convinced that the arguments aren't just a little exaggerated to scare the masses... as if...

[ezz]

Haha i know Keith i agreed with you in saying that there is no reason to say sea levels would rise, theres no reason to say they wouldn't. It will be nice to see if we get lucky though because it looks like sometime in the future were going to find out!!

[Mr Munnings]

Is that a Wright and Lord MFC pen in the first picture or some kind of Manx Sex Toy?

[HALMA 1983]

or some kind of Manx Sex Toy?

It can't be! it hasn't got a tail

[Keith]

"The Villa Marina & Gaiety Theatre"

My wife wanted to know if, as a result of the photos, Posh had acknowledged I was correct or stated that I had far too much time on my hands...



I'm anticipating both!

Right, it's stopped raining, best go shower, eat & drink!

[Mr Munnings]

or some kind of Manx Sex Toy?

It can't be! it hasn't got a tail

Its got two big floppy ears though..

[Mark S]

Put the laptop away, ask Elaine to hide it and go to bed.

Tomorrow, get up have a shower and think.....

'I am in paradise. The UK is on the brink of recession and I am in a place where most of the nation would give a right arm to spend a fortnight. I will enjoy myself without taking stupid pictures in unscientific or supervised conditions and instead go outside where the sun is shining and the beach is clean and the water clear. I will spend the day perving at the women on the beach and take photos of them instead for my mates back in frosty Morecambe (but only if the wife isnt looking)'

[Keith]

Put the laptop away, ask Elaine to hide it and go to bed.

Tomorrow, get up have a shower and think.....

'I am in paradise. The UK is on the brink of recession and I am in a place where most of the nation would give a right arm to spend a fortnight. I will enjoy myself without taking stupid pictures in unscientific or supervised conditions and instead go outside where the sun is shining and the beach is clean and the water clear. I will spend the day perving at the women on the beach and take photos of them instead for my mates back in frosty Morecambe (but only if the wife isnt looking)'

LOL!

It's only 7:30pm, I've not had my tea

For the first time in over a fortnight, it rained today. We're at the back of the rainy season and today we were reminded of that fact! But it is warm rain

And as for most of the nation giving their right arm to be here, a mere four-hundred of your earth pounds will secure a three bedroom apartment for a fortnight if you are a shrimpsvoices reader! (Transport not included!) www.royalresidence.org

Okay, after that blatant plug, I'm off to sit on the beach and eat lobster.

[HALMA 1983]

You'll start a pauper uprising with all this talk of the high life

Lobster Crab is far tastier! especially when it's Shippams

[Phoenix]

I think I get what Posh is trying to explain. The ice is on land and is melting into the sea. As it melts, the land isn't shifting to make way for the water that runs into the sea.

So take your half full glass of water and on top of the glass put a beer mat with a small hole in the middle. Onto the beer mat add your ice. As it melts, the water runs through the hole and your glass starts to fill up.

[Posh]

I think I get what Posh is trying to explain. The ice is on land and is melting into the sea. As it melts, the land isn't shifting to make way for the water that runs into the sea.

So take your half full glass of water and on top of the glass put a beer mat with a small hole in the middle. Onto the beer mat add your ice. As it melts, the water runs through the hole and your glass starts to fill up.

Quite right.

This has all the answers http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.co ... evels.html

To quote:

Because of Archimedes' Principle, if the ice is already floating in the ocean, the total mass of the ocean and ice remains unchanged even when the ice melts.

However, the real rise in sea levels comes from ice that is grounded on a landmass. As the melted ice flows as water, or falls as ice chunks into the ocean it increases the total volume of the ocean. That is, ice discharged from a grounded ice sheet directly into the ocean has an immediate impact on sea level. Because the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets are sitting on land and not floating, they have the potential to raise sea levels significantly.

The Antarctic ice sheet is the largest single mass of ice on Earth. It covers an area of almost 14 million km² and contains 30 million km³ of ice. Around 90% of the fresh water on the Earth's surface is held in the ice sheet, and, according to Richard S. Williams, Jr., United States Geological Survey geologist, if melted, could cause sea levels to rise by 65 meters (213 feet, although the 4th IPCC report suggests a rise of 57 metres or 187 feet). The Greenland ice sheet occupies about 82% of the surface of Greenland, and if melted would cause sea levels to rise by 7 metres (23 feet).