Negative Shrimper

[shrimper]

I am going to go against my general philosophy completely now and open up a thread on a slightly negative point when it may seem there's no reason to do so.

The performance at Shrewsbury was an excellent one and - in just about any other circumstamces - I would struggle to find anything at all negative to say about it.

But in this case I'm going to.

I was disappointed that Sammy didn't throw Duffy on, in place of Wayne, with about 20 minutes to go.

Okay we maintained our unbeaten run in a very tough fixture away from home and ordinarily that would be 100% positive.

But - if we are to have any chance at all of making the play-offs - then we need three points, not one, in most games.

I thought they were a good side but, if we'd tried to get at them with a bit of trickery and pace in the last quarter of the game, I think they'd run out of ideas a bit and were there for the taking.

I fully accept that it may have blown up in our faces and, changing a team that was holding them pretty well, could have seen us losing.

But I think we have to take a few risks now if we're to get the three points from tough games like this.

Nit-picking, I know, after such a great all-round team performance and in a run when Sammy and Mark have worked absolute miracles.

One win equals three draws.

Perhaps Sam has worked out the points and targeted 'go for it' and 'take it cautiously' games as part of a strategy for the run-in. Just thought we could have gambled a bit for the last 20 minutes on Saturday.

I certainly wouldn't have blamed him for trying, if it had backfired.

Thoughts??

[P/T Indie]

I agree I think we have had 16 draws this season and we have all said if only we could have turned a few of those draws into wins what a difference it would have made.

Sometimes Sammy makes his changes far to late like making his first change after 85 mins. I would much rather players life duffy getting 20-30 mins if it looks like we are not creating much instead of just plodding on with the same team and then sending say O'Caroll on with 5 mins to go to try and produce something.

[The Fury]

I wasn't at the game so can't make any judgement on whether or not a substitution would have been appropriate in that particular game, but neglecting the substitutes bench seems, I think, a general weakness in Sammy's management.

In total contrast, Jim Harvey would often make substitutions (baffling ones too so it seemed to many supporters) too early which would cost us…Alan Morgan being such an example alluded to in another active thread. When Sammy first came in as caretaker, I remember thinking that we'd got someone here who was a little more wily; a manager who'd rather bide his time and wait for the opportune moment before changing personnel. However, I've shifted in this view now and think that he doesn't maximise the benefit of substitutions often enough. For example yesterday, although I wasn’t there as mentioned, I would have thought that Rene Howe’s lack of match fitness coupled with O’Carroll’s recent good form would have presented an ideal change, perhaps around the 70-75 minute marking, considering the scoreline at that time. That isn’t the only example of course, I remember thinking on many occasions last season that Jon Newby wasn’t deployed early enough to have an impact. This theme his often been repeated in the late introduction of both O’Carroll and Aaron Taylor this season. Also, Stewart Drummond’s legs begin to fade these days later on in games and I sometimes feel it would be advantageous to the midfield if he was perhaps sacrificed in favour of some younger legs.

Whilst Ockers commented on Morecambe World that the lack of substitutions in Saturday’s game was indicative of how well the XI on the pitch played – and that may be right – I think it also highlights Sammy’s unwillingness to change and, as you say, take a risk. But hey, we are 12 games unbeaten and any changes made in any of those games might have had the ‘Harvey Effect’.

Perhaps if Sammy Harvey was in charge we’d have the ideal substitution maker!

[Shrimpsscene]

I think that on Saturday we wer efortunate not to be two goals behind at half time Holt and Humphrey ahd two reasonably good chance with Holt guilty of missing a great one on one
good stop by Barry though
In th emidfield I thought we were stronger and Davies leaving the pitch took their deadball expert off.
I was surprised that Sammy didnt make any changes in the second half but I took it as a compliment to the team on the park. Arts was a lucky man not to have conceded a penalty and Garry Hunter possibly luck to still be on the pitch at full time.
I dont think that game on Saturday was one which Duffy would have made his mark.
Neil Ashton and Darren Moss were solid throughout
Two solid defences cancelling each other out I thought
Fair result I thought and a superb point

I think Saturday at home is a game fo rDuffy to be tested no real pressure for points but not in front of 5000 Shrews fans who rarely see their team get beat at home.

I think this would have been a cautious lets ghet a point game and hopefully saturday will be a case of lets got for it as i think Darlington and Bradford will be as those are games we have areal chance of winning

Anyway how would you know muskeet i thought you lot had been on the moonshine all day???

[shrimper]

I was surprised that Sammy didnt make any changes in the second half but I took it as a compliment to the team on the park.
Two solid defences cancelling each other out I thought
Fair result I thought and a superb point

I think Saturday at home is a game fo rDuffy to be tested no real pressure for points but not in front of 5000 Shrews fans who rarely see their team get beat at home.

I think this would have been a cautious lets ghet a point game and hopefully saturday will be a case of lets got for it as i think Darlington and Bradford will be as those are games we have areal chance of winning

:

Agree with most of that and I can see why he didn't make the changes - I just think I'd have gambled.

But then who am I? Sammy's done brilliantly and, with hundreds of decisions to make every week, the net result is that he's got us where we are.
Not a criticism, just a comment.

[Shrimpsscene]

I was surprised that Sammy didnt make any changes in the second half but I took it as a compliment to the team on the park.
Two solid defences cancelling each other out I thought
Fair result I thought and a superb point

I think Saturday at home is a game fo rDuffy to be tested no real pressure for points but not in front of 5000 Shrews fans who rarely see their team get beat at home.

I think this would have been a cautious lets ghet a point game and hopefully saturday will be a case of lets got for it as i think Darlington and Bradford will be as those are games we have areal chance of winning

:

Agree with most of that and I can see why he didn't make the changes - I just think I'd have gambled.

But then who am I? Sammy's done brilliantly and, with hundreds of decisions to make every week, the net result is that he's got us where we are.
Not a criticism, just a comment.

it could also be the case that to get a point keeps that winning run going and confidence high in the team a defeat before the tough luton game might have been a real downer and put pressure on ourselves?
That point at Shrewsbury means League status secured for next season job done we can now relax and enjoy the remaining games and hopefully look for a top ten finish

[simmy]

Interesting topic, which rather than being negative in many ways highlights the progress made over the last two months.

I agree that Sammy is slow to change things at times with regard to attacking substitutions, but I believe that it is also important to keep the momentum that we now have going.

I was not at the game on Saturday, but would gladly have settled for a draw before kick off.

Our progress has been made as a result of us playing as a hard working and well organised unit. This was recognised by some of the Shrewsbury fans in their post match comments.

I would gladly settle for more of the same for the rest of this season.

Safe from relegation before the end of March and with a good chance of beating last seasons points total, we are moving in the right direction. If we are able to keep this run going then we may have an outside chance of the play offs, which is something that nobody would have envisaged at the end of October.

After all the gloom and doom earlier in the season we can look forward with confidence and have a good basis to build on for next season.

[Martin]

I think to maintain good chance to reach play offs we needed the three points at Shrewsbury, one of the teams we're chasing down. As the game panned out, Duffy may well have provided that little bit extra to give us the opporunity to nick the win.

Maybe Sammy was a litle over-cautious, but the draw was still an excellent result and shows just how far the team has progressed.

If we keep the run going, we look good for at least a top half spot - that seemed highly unlikely a few weeks back.

[Posh]

It was what a few of us were saying. However with few options on the bench (very few like for like) and players doing so well it was going to be difficult.

The only change I could see were Duffy down the middle for Curtis. Or the same change and go 4-4-2 with Duffy wide right, Wainers wide left and maybe Aaron Taylor on for Rene to capitalise on aerial balls. E.g. we got a few corners (and crosses) at the end but did very little with them.

[Curly]

When I saw Duffy warming up 15 mins from end I thought he might have just been the change
we needed, I think SM was more concerned with the point (good result) and didn't want to
change things too much, shame really as I think our defence was pretty solid and as said before Artell was having a great game, Grant Holt was pretty much shut down so maybe we could have risked a change or two.

[Christies Child]

The use and timing of subs has been a problem for managers throughout the game and Sammy is no different.

I've always been of the opinion that 'going for it' is the best bet long term.

Another 6 winning goals when drawing games would have brought a further 12 points and put us up amongst the play-off places.

Maybe Glen should ask Sammy for his thinking and logic on the present policy?

[Howe Magic]

Cant believe what i am reading - a couple of months ago Sammy was getting grief for picking wrong players and setting up wrong way formation wise now he is getting grief for not making changes in certain matches....let the guy just get on with the great job he is doing after all he as just got manager of the month and not to be funny the guy will have forgotten more about football than we will ever know...the club is 12 games unbeaten for gods sake (i bet if we won league two some people would come on here and moan that we didnt get more points that we got or scored more goals - i feel honoured and privaledged to have such a great guy in charge of our team) keep it going everyone

[Freez]

Don't think anyone is over reacting apart from you Howe Magic. Calm Down dear.

[Martin]

Cant believe what i am reading - a couple of months ago Sammy was getting grief for picking wrong players and setting up wrong way formation wise now he is getting grief for not making changes in certain matches....let the guy just get on with the great job he is doing after all he as just got manager of the month and not to be funny the guy will have forgotten more about football than we will ever know...the club is 12 games unbeaten for gods sake (i bet if we won league two some people would come on here and moan that we didnt get more points that we got or scored more goals - i feel honoured and privaledged to have such a great guy in charge of our team) keep it going everyone

Woah there! Read the posts again. It's a barely critical observation we're all making that's all! Not every comment has to be jingoistically upbeat - not every minute decision or aspect of play is perfect, no matter how good the results. I don't think anyone is over criticising Sammy, just airing views and possibilities about Saturday's game.

[shrimper]

Cant believe what i am reading - a couple of months ago Sammy was getting grief for picking wrong players and setting up wrong way formation wise now he is getting grief for not making changes in certain matches....let the guy just get on with the great job he is doing after all he as just got manager of the month and not to be funny the guy will have forgotten more about football than we will ever know...the club is 12 games unbeaten for gods sake (i bet if we won league two some people would come on here and moan that we didnt get more points that we got or scored more goals - i feel honoured and privaledged to have such a great guy in charge of our team) keep it going everyone

I almost didn't start this thread because I didn't want to come across as having a go at Sammy.
I just thought it was worthy of discussion - the general theme of us taking a few risks from now to the end of the season is an interesting one, I think.

John:-

I said: "I fully accept that it may have blown up in our faces and, changing a team that was holding them pretty well, could have seen us losing."

I also said: "Nit-picking, I know, after such a great all-round team performance and in a run when Sammy and Mark have worked absolute miracles."

As well as: "I just think I'd have gambled.
But then who am I? Sammy's done brilliantly and, with hundreds of decisions to make every week, the net result is that he's got us where we are.
Not a criticism, just a comment."

My 'gamble' may well have resulted in us getting no points on Saturday. I've accepted that. And there may have been other very good reasons for Sammy not putting a sub on.

I'm happy to trust Sammy, he's shown he deserves our trust in abundance, but that shouldn't stop us making our own very personal little observations by way of discussion, mate.

Up the Shrimps!!

[Hodgie]

Stop back tracking Shrimper.

I am with HM on this one.

[james456]

I agree. And in general, I think Sammy should use Duffy a bit more.

Sammy is a great manager but he should use subs more effectively imho.

[Howe Magic]

I would love to see more of duffy on the pitch but would also love to see us continue this fantastic run so its a very fine line...and about turning the draws into wins there are also a few games we could have also lost such as rochdale and bury...

[bigreddog]

To be fair Shrimper in his opening post has only said what many of us were thinking on the stands on saturday. It is in no way a criticism of Sammy merely a question of "could w have gone for it in the last 1/4". when you look at the game, the real one that we saw that has not been reflected in any of the national press I read yesterday, we had an excellent 2nd half IMO, but nowhere has it said that, then maybe just maybe Duffy could have done something a bit extra. However, what I saw was little old Morecambe go to the club with the best home record in england and get a point, I saw the opposition manager panic like a panicy thing throwing on all three subs before we'd even got ours warming up (one nil to our dugout straight away) and I also saw my manager take a good solid point and let a centre forward who's been out for weeks complete a full 90 for the first time in ages. Maybe because sammy wants those players who put the shift in on saturday to really believe they have enough in the tank to do just that. Point at shrewsbury having taking no unnecessary risks, good result for me. Luton (who I desperately want to stay up) and Bradford to come. now then, duffy at home and risk in the last twenty, yes please.

Anyway this is another one of those threads were we broadly agree isn't it?

[parceldave]

Don't think anyone is over reacting apart from you Howe Magic. Calm Down dear.

Absolutely ,Shrimper is only making a comment about what he and most of us thought on Saturday . Swapping a couple of forwards would have done us more good than harm , Rene Howe and Waynaldo were lagging in the last 15 mins and a bit of pace up front would have given them something to think about. The defence and midfield would have just carried on doing a fantastic job that they had been doing all afternnon and we would Probably have 3 pts in the bag .

[Howe Magic]

I am not over reacting at all - i want the team to win every game they play but i know this wont happen but i would rather get a point away from home than nothing at all...yes we can throw a striker on with twenty to go but it does not always get results...we can all be managers from the stands but there is no pressure on us and if we had to be on the bench making decisions i bet they would be different

[parceldave]

I am not over reacting at all - i want the team to win every game they play but i know this wont happen but i would rather get a point away from home than nothing at all...yes we can throw a striker on with twenty to go but it does not always get results...we can all be managers from the stands but there is no pressure on us and if we had to be on the bench making decisions i bet they would be different

But there was nothing to lose and everything to gain , Rene was Knackered towards the end and i think he would have happily taken a breather

[wijit]

Pretty much with you shrimper, apart from your reference to getting in the play offs. After the rather poor showings we've had on many occasions this season, I'm just glad to be above mid-table. I really don't think it's worth looking at the play-offs.

[Martin]

I am not over reacting at all - i want the team to win every game they play but i know this wont happen but i would rather get a point away from home than nothing at all...yes we can throw a striker on with twenty to go but it does not always get results...we can all be managers from the stands but there is no pressure on us and if we had to be on the bench making decisions i bet they would be different

But you are over-reacting. Your tone of response suggests you think we're all having a go at Sammy - that's simply not the case. There was an opportunity to make a substitution and perhaps win the game; surely that opportunity is ripe for discussion? I don't think anyone is unhappy with the draw - it's an excellent result - but it's also perfectly valid to explore the possibility that we could have won.

[shrimper]

Pretty much with you shrimper, apart from your reference to getting in the play offs. After the rather poor showings we've had on many occasions this season, I'm just glad to be above mid-table. I really don't think it's worth looking at the play-offs.

I'm delirious about being mid-table and I think Sammy, Mark and the team have worked absolutely unimaginable miracles to get us to mid-table for which no praise is too high.

But we are where we are right now and that is with a (mathematical) chance of sneaking into the play-offs.

We all saw last season what can happen if you have a 'job done' attitude.

Don't get me wrong, if mid-table (or even just below) is where we end up then I will see that as a great achievement.

But I bet the team and the management are at least looking at the play-off positions - they wouldn't be the ambitious, professional sportsmen they've shown themselves to be if they weren't.

Or were you just indulging in a bit of 'shhh, don't mention the play-offs' bit of reverse psychology?