Boris' New Proposals

Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby KenH » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:37 am

marky No.1 wrote:
BerlinWaller wrote:But they haven't crippled their economy, refused people vital healthcare, sent suicides and depression through the roof, robbed kids of education and they don't have millions of people on Gov hand outs that are due to end soon.


The end of furlough will be a real life changer for many


No support for 3 million self employed who fell through the cracks in Sunak's support has already changed their lives - loss of livelihood, loss of homes, loss of savings. Well done Sunak! At first he said "we'll leave no one behind" now he's changed his tune to "we can't help everyone".
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby HALMA 1983 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:24 am

8-)
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby marky No.1 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:50 am

The idea was to tide businesses over the pandemic period and keep their staff on.
At the moment it looks like by the end of October many will not have a job to go back to.
Companies I deal with have realised they can actually function without reps out on the road, the online revolution will keep gathering speed and highstreets will be almost a thing of the past.
Enjoy yourself.... It is later than you think
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby BerlinWaller » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:28 am

At what point will it be done?
https://twitter.com/zoeharcombe/status/ ... 09152?s=19

And the tests that are being done aren't even getting checked. 8.8% of tests done in Manchester were voided and samples are being spoiled before they even reach the labs.
https://twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/sta ... 25858?s=19
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Keith » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:32 am

HALMA 1983 wrote:
it'll be interesting to see if he gets the blame for the next 10 years of austerity after giving away more than was ever possible.


He will & should, if that's what happens. Austerity was and is a completely politically motivated policy.

Conservatives don't like services that benefit poor people.
Conservatives do like stuff, but only if there is profit at the end of it.
Conservatives used the illusion of unsustainable debt in order to cut the stuff that benefitted poor people.

The debt was entirely manageable a decade ago. Austerity was never needed.

Public borrowing is at an all time low. It is almost 'free'. What is needed is massive borrowing, to be invested in a building programme. New hospitals, new schools, new affordable housing. Initiatives like Eden Project in Morecambe, renewable energy investment. Paid for over a hundred years or more.

Austerity does far more harm than good. It was flawed a decade ago. It is flawed now. But it is an ideology that sounds like it should make sense... it just doesn't.
“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: ".

David Cameron. May 4th 2015.
So how did that work out then?
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Keith » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:38 am

BerlinWaller wrote:At what point will it be done?
https://twitter.com/zoeharcombe/status/ ... 09152?s=19


Always good to see people who are 'Doctors' writing about 'health', using "Dr" in front of their name, even though they have a Phd not a medical qualification. Obviously, they are completely entitled to do that, but their opinion on medical matters is the same as everyone else and not based upon medical knowledge. I'm sure they aren't trying to look like something they are not...

When someone uses terms like "draconian measures" to describe social distancing and other restrictions, you can generally guess that they are already biased.
“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: ".

David Cameron. May 4th 2015.
So how did that work out then?
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby BerlinWaller » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:46 am

Keith wrote:
BerlinWaller wrote:At what point will it be done?
https://twitter.com/zoeharcombe/status/ ... 09152?s=19


Always good to see people who are 'Doctors' writing about 'health', using "Dr" in front of their name, even though they have a Phd not a medical qualification. Obviously, they are completely entitled to do that, but their opinion on medical matters is the same as everyone else and not based upon medical knowledge. I'm sure they aren't trying to look like something they are not...

When someone uses terms like "draconian measures" to describe social distancing and other restrictions, you can generally guess that they are already biased.


That's lovely Keith but where is the 2nd wave on that graph?

Aa you have totally swerved the leaked Government dashboard regarding the shambles of processing tests or "cases" as they are now known, do you think Moonshot is our only hope of a return to normal?

https://twitter.com/_johnbye/status/130 ... 65984?s=19
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby HALMA 1983 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:10 am

Keith wrote:
HALMA 1983 wrote:
it'll be interesting to see if he gets the blame for the next 10 years of austerity after giving away more than was ever possible.


He will & should, if that's what happens. Austerity was and is a completely politically motivated policy.

Conservatives don't like services that benefit poor people.
Conservatives do like stuff, but only if there is profit at the end of it.
Conservatives used the illusion of unsustainable debt in order to cut the stuff that benefitted poor people.

The debt was entirely manageable a decade ago. Austerity was never needed.

Public borrowing is at an all time low. It is almost 'free'. What is needed is massive borrowing, to be invested in a building programme. New hospitals, new schools, new affordable housing. Initiatives like Eden Project in Morecambe, renewable energy investment. Paid for over a hundred years or more.

Austerity does far more harm than good. It was flawed a decade ago. It is flawed now. But it is an ideology that sounds like it should make sense... it just
Last edited by HALMA 1983 on Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby KenH » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:22 pm

Keith wrote:Public borrowing is at an all time low. It is almost 'free'.


But what happens when none of that debt has been paid off and interest rates rise again (which they will)?
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby HALMA 1983 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:53 pm

KenH wrote:
Keith wrote:Public borrowing is at an all time low. It is almost 'free'.


But what happens when none of that debt has been paid off and interest rates rise again (which they will)?
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Andy D » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:11 pm

brilliant time for buying and selling Houses though, no stamp duty!!
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby morecambegeek » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:01 pm

HALMA 1983 wrote:
You keep on over egging the pudding with this poor people stuff Keith and at a time when the standard of living in this country hasn't ever been better,


https://www.trusselltrust.org/news-and- ... ear-stats/
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby HALMA 1983 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:48 pm

morecambegeek wrote:
HALMA 1983 wrote:
You keep on over egging the pudding with this poor people stuff Keith and at a time when the standard of living in this country hasn't ever been better,


https://www.trusselltrust.org/news-and- ... ear-stats/
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Freez » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:41 pm

Funny, but this is an MFC forum and should stay predominantly that.
But this “point at the illegal immigrants and blame them” is complete bollocks.
As a nation we processed 45,000 applications from asylum seekers in 2019.
France processed 139,000, a similar amount from Italy, Greece and Germany even more last year, so we are doing far LESS than equivalent countries.
So please do not play this card on here, as it’s a political statement which is untrue. Fact check please before spouting off.
Thanks.
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby HALMA 1983 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:58 pm

Freez wrote:Funny, but this is an MFC forum and should stay predominantly that.
But this “point at the illegal immigrants and blame them” is complete bollocks.
As a nation we processed 45,000 applications from asylum seekers in 2019.
France processed 139,000, a similar amount from Italy, Greece and Germany even more last year, so we are doing far LESS than equivalent countries.
So please do not play this card on here, as it’s a political statement which is untrue. Fact check please before spouting off.
Thanks.


Fair enough.
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby BerlinWaller » Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:18 am

Two days of testing in a Lancaster car park this week so watch out for local lock down measures being implemented.
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Shrimp Girl » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:21 am

If its the car park near the town hall, they've been using that as a testing venue for several weeks now so it's nothing new to worry about.
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Keith » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:13 am

KenH wrote:
Keith wrote:Public borrowing is at an all time low. It is almost 'free'.


But what happens when none of that debt has been paid off and interest rates rise again (which they will)?


Pay down debt during the 'good times', borrow & invest in public services during the downturns.

The Conservatives spent a decade making cuts to public services and cutting taxes for the wealthy. Did the country improve due to this? Debt actually increased but with nothing to show for it, unless you were already super-rich.

Austerity is like a family. The mortgage is the biggest debt. So the parents decide the best thing to do is stop buying food & clothing for the children, so they can pay the mortgage off quicker.
“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: ".

David Cameron. May 4th 2015.
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Keith » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:49 am

BerlinWaller wrote:That's lovely Keith but where is the 2nd wave on that graph?

Aa you have totally swerved the leaked Government dashboard regarding the shambles of processing tests or "cases" as they are now known, do you think Moonshot is our only hope of a return to normal?


The government's handling of this has been shambolic, I'm certainly not supporting them. Equally, pretending it isn't real is not useful either. There hasn't been a 'second wave' yet, partly because there are still control measures in place and partly because it isn't due yet. Viruses spread more easily indoors. During the summer months, we have more 'out door time', so less spread. During winter months, more indoor time, hence a spike in virus transmission during the winter. The second wave was always predicted to be later in the year/early next year.

Test & trace would appear to be the best answer, but would actually need to be managed correctly, rather than the mess that the government have currently created. A French virologist was interviewed on Channel Four News last week. Basically, she was saying that as Britain has been generally a couple of weeks behind France, the British government should be learning from France's errors and stop following them!

She suggested that one thing that can be done, is multiple samples being taken and checked as one. Twenty individuals are taken on one sample (not the same swab in each other's mouths & noses!) This one sample is then processed. If a sample comes back positive, then the twenty people are all individually checked. If (for example) a university had 2,000 students and one was COVID-19 positive, it would only take 120 samples to find that one person, who could then self-isolate (100 x 20 initial samples, then 20 follow up). This method would allow for wide spread testing which could be carried out weekly. As asymptomatic people are far less likely to spread the virus, this would be a quick, easy & relatively cheap way to allow universities (or work places) to continue operating while still managing the spread of the virus.

'Flattening the curve' was the right policy. It isn't going to be eradicated. But not doing anything would have led to health services being overwhelmed. This have happened in the USA. A couple of weeks ago, there was a report from one area, (a county in Florida I think, but not 100% sure and can't find the report now) that didn't have a solitary ICU bed empty. That means that someone with a condition completely unrelated to COVID-19 probably died following a car crash, sepsis or heart attack etc, simply due to a lack of an ICU bed.

Closing down the economy again is not a good idea. The only way around this is, as the French virologist (a 'proper doctor') suggests, mass, regular testing with individual isolation. Science has moved forwards a long way in six months. In March you had a less than 30% chance of surviving COVID-19 once you were admitted to ICU. By the start of August you had a greater than 70% survival. 'Normal' pneumonia has about 80% survival rate, so we're closing in, as doctors discover the best ways to treat patients who have the virus.

The government also need to stop with the inconsistent messaging. They also screwed up massively by not sacking Prime Minister Dominic Cummings after his wife's birthday journey to Durham and his eye test at Barnard Castle. From that moment, it was clear that a substantial proportion of the population thought 'bollocks to it' and compliance went down.
“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: ".

David Cameron. May 4th 2015.
So how did that work out then?
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby redrobo » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:59 am

Notice how both France and Spain have had a massive increase in cases over the last days.... :?: :?: :?:

If as Dr Keith says that we follow France then a second wave is on its way...if it hasn't already arrived... :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Keith » Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:36 am

redrobo wrote:Notice how both France and Spain have had a massive increase in cases over the last days.... :?: :?: :?:

If as Dr Keith says that we follow France then a second wave is on its way...if it hasn't already arrived... :cry: :cry: :cry:


Nurse Keith if you don't mind!

I was part of the Isle of Man Government's 'Pandemic Flu' planning group about 15 years ago. This developed in to a full blown planning session that included education & Chamber of Commerce. The plan was obviously reviewed over time, but basically sat there until needed. The Public Health Consultant (a 'proper doctor') repeatedly said 'when' not 'if' a pandemic occurs. In fact, he said Public Health specialists were amazed that it hadn't already happened, as using historical data, we were overdue one, even back then. The IoM Government dusted down our plan and although they didn't implement it fully, it was the backbone of their response. Twenty-four deaths on the IoM, sadly, 18 were residents in the same nursing home, where it was rife. No community transmission since the first week in June and COVID-19 free since June 15th. No 'social isolation'. No wearing of masks. Schools went back ages ago. Restaurants, shops & bars all operating as normal. The only restriction is on travel on to the Island. Residents can now leave, but face a mandatory 14 day quarantine on return. Non-residents (family, friends & general tourists) are not allowed on at all. Breaking quarantine generally leads to six weeks in prison. Serve half your sentence and be out after three weeks for good behaviour, so that's your two weeks of quarantine and an extra week for being a dick.

Isle of Man's housing market has suddenly started to boil. People from the UK are relocating here because they are happy to 'work from home' and see it as a safe place. A house on my street had a 'For Sale' sign put up. Out of curiosity, I went on-line that evening to check the price. It was already under offer. People are paying full asking price without even seeing the property! Once you own a property, you are allowed to move over (with the 14 day quarantine).

We will get COVID-19 over here again at some point. But it has been managed well so far and will hopefully be managed well again when it comes back. It is amazing what a difference 'having a plan' makes.

I think we're looking at next April before we can say for definite if/when a second wave occurs in the UK.
“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: ".

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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby redrobo » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:09 pm

My brother in law's sister is married to someone who was born in the IoM but came over to the mainland some years ago to teach in a local school.

Now that he and his wife have just retired they have sold their house in Morecambe and moved back to the IoM to be close to his elderly parents.

However they are unable to purchase any property for 6 months and have to live in rented accommodation until they are eligible to buy property.

They are not pleased with this directive but have to live with it..... :cry:
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby KenH » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:46 pm

Keith wrote:Isle of Man's housing market has suddenly started to boil. People from the UK are relocating here because they are happy to 'work from home' and see it as a safe place.


Nothing to do with being a tax haven then? Being able to work from home has suddenly meant people can move to IOM, avoid UK taxes, yet keep their UK jobs. Whereas previously, if they had to work in the UK, they were very limited as to number/duration of visits to the mainland etc to avoid UK tax.
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Keith » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:51 pm

redrobo wrote:My brother in law's sister is married to someone who was born in the IoM but came over to the mainland some years ago to teach in a local school.

Now that he and his wife have just retired they have sold their house in Morecambe and moved back to the IoM to be close to his elderly parents.

However they are unable to purchase any property for 6 months and have to live in rented accommodation until they are eligible to buy property.

They are not pleased with this directive but have to live with it..... :cry:


They've been badly and incorrectly advised.

This is from the government's own web site:

"There are no restrictions on buying property in the Isle of Man".

https://www.locate.im/living/housing/fi ... sle-of-man
“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: ".

David Cameron. May 4th 2015.
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Re: Boris' New Proposals

Postby Keith » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:02 pm

KenH wrote:
Keith wrote:Isle of Man's housing market has suddenly started to boil. People from the UK are relocating here because they are happy to 'work from home' and see it as a safe place.

Nothing to do with being a tax haven then? Being able to work from home has suddenly meant people can move to IOM, avoid UK taxes, yet keep their UK jobs. Whereas previously, if they had to work in the UK, they were very limited as to number/duration of visits to the mainland etc to avoid UK tax.


I certainly wouldn't rule that out as being part of the reasons for some people but the IoM isn't the "tax haven" of old. For the majority of people who move over here, they are not going to be that much better off once you factor in the cost of utilities etc. Certainly, people buying the property on my road are not going to fall in to that group of people who would benefit significantly for tax purposes.

'High Net Worth' people would benefit from the 'tax cap' need an income where they pay more than £125k income tax. People with that income don't need to buy a three bedroom semi (unless they plan on renting it out!)
“Britain faces a simple and inescapable choice - stability and strong Government with me, or chaos with Ed Miliband: ".

David Cameron. May 4th 2015.
So how did that work out then?
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