Time to face the facts

[seasonsinthesun]

Perhaps even our club captain is on borrowed time even though he still gives 500 % every match.

[Heysham_Shrimp]

Good point Red Knight wasnt it a certain Jim harvey who never agreed with signing old league players as he felt they were on their way out of the game and just intrested in picking up the money so instead invested in youth.

is that the same Jim Harvey who signed Ruffer , Kelly , Lightfoot , Alan Morgan and O'Connor ?
some investment in youth there !

[campdave]

One thing that concerns me about this years team is the complete lack of pace - Rotherham and Gillingham exploited it to great results. It prevents us moving forward quickly, which I think it why we often resort to long ball football. Defensively, it also seems to leave us liable if the other team can quickly counter attack.

The reason for the loss of pace would seem to be Thompson and Baker moving on, both decisions that were out of Sammy's hands. Comparing last seasons squad to this seasons, last season's was stronger, but only for the presence of those two players. In my opinion, comparing the two squads without those players, and I think this season's one is stronger. However, those two players were capable of producing goals or creating chances from nothing, and that's bloody difficult (and expensive) to replace. I think last season, we were profligate in front of goal, but we created more chances. This season, we're still wasting chances, but it's costing us because we're creating less chances overall.

The players we have available who are willing to sign for us are constrained by our budget and location. When we were in the conference, we were one of the biggest teams in the region at that level, and as such, players at that level were willing to sign for us. Now we're in League 2, look at how many other clubs there are in our division locally, some with better resources and facilities, and the amount of players prepared to travel up here will dwindle - bearing in mind that relatively, players at this level are on lower wages, and most likely can't afford to move house when they move clubs. Someone in this thread mentioned Dagenham doing better than us on similar resources, but being in London, they have a far larger pool of talent to be selecting from us. A club of our size, at this level, is looking at signing players other League 2 clubs have let go, or taking chances on players from a lower level. A player faced between playing for Rochdale or us, is more likely to go to Rochdale, if wages are equal. So that leaves the option of offering more money and perhaps attracting more mercanary type players.

Changing the manager won't change the resources or players available. Of course, the tactics are solely down to the manager, but do we really know if he is playing the way he is because of the players he's got, or has he signed the players to play in this way. That's something most of us will never know.

I think we over-performed last season, especially in the first half when we had Lewis and Baker was firing on all cylinders. That raised expectation amongst fans, when I think the current position is a much more realistic one for a club of our size. We seem to be in the same position as Accrington last year, who did OK in their first season, lost some of their best players for their second season and struggled from then on.

[Weetabix Kid]

Adam Yates needs recalling to the team and Howard (once fit). Parrish and McCann aren't as good as them, simple as !

On the Danny Adams front, yes he was a good signing, but I feel he's now past it. He used to get by from his footballing brain and positioning, but from what I've seen so far, even those are now lost to him !

I think we will be safe (just) this season so why not give more games to Davies and Taylor and anymore we have coming through

[Keith]

On top of this our long ball tactics are due to our inability in midfield to be creative, or pass accurately enough. So lobbing it up and hoping for a mistake seem to be our best tactic.

I'm not convinced of this, I think it's the other way around. Pre-season v Carlisle, we totally out played them and the ball was always on the floor, passed to feet. It was noticable that Roache almost always rolled the ball out and we built from defence. A couple of weeks later and from the off we were hoofing the ball. At Wycombe Roache practically never passed to a defender, it was all long kicks, ditto the defence. Why the change? That day we had a central midfield that was poor when they did get the ball but I think Drummond & Stanley can both play well enough to trust them with the occasional pass to feet. I agree that "lobbing it up and hoping for a mistake" is our primary tactic... I'm far from convinced that it's our best!

[marky]

I think we're caught between a rock and a hard place tactically at the moment. Sammy wasn't happy with the amount of goals we conceded last year and has obviously changed the style of play. Reading all the reports and comments on all the games it's all too apparent that we invite pressure. Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of pacy wingers & strikers in this league who can run rings round our defence and the fact they all lack pace themselves doesn't really help. As part of this, if you're going to play a game of soak up pressure and then hit teams on the break, you must have pace in midfield and up front. We don't have this so we can't counter-attack productively. So, our best method of attack is just that, attack. Get the ball down, pass the ball and get numbers forward more consistently. Unfortunately this in turn leaves our slow defence vulnerable to counter-attacks.

To me it all boils down to one thing - pace. Our complete lack of it throughout the side is costing us at both ends. We've only kept one clean sheet and we've only scored more than 1 goal once. I don't think our defence is good enough to prevent teams from scoring consistently whereas I do believe we have 3 players in Howe, O' Carroll and Taylor who are more than capable of getting 30 plus goals between them if they are given the right service. We've got to get the ball down and play more attacking football. Sure, we'll probably still concede a few by being hit on the break but it would increase our chances of winning a game!

[Christies Child]

Remember the Chesterfield game the other week?

We played possibly the best 'on the deck' football I've seen all season until we scored and then for some unknown reason we changed to the long punt.

Is it because we can't dictate a game and let the opposition bully us into allowing them to dictate?

As for the defence....Sammy was on record as saying that the defence was a close season priority. Now maybe his list of targets included defenders who for whatever reason ( and i believe that location is a key and NOT always money) decided to go elsewhere. But those he brought in ie McCann and Parrish have shown me no more than Jamie Burns did when he occupied the left back birth for a few games AND he had the natural abilty of going forward.

How about trying Drummy alongside Jimbo with Yates in for Adams and McStay on the right?

In midfield I'd play Stanners, Wayne in centre midfield and Mclachlan just in front of the back 4 with Howe, Taylor and O'Carroll as a front 3.

There you go...problems solved.

[parceldave]

Remember the Chesterfield game the other week?

We played possibly the best 'on the deck' football I've seen all season until we scored and then for some unknown reason we changed to the long punt.

Is it because we can't dictate a game and let the opposition bully us into allowing them to dictate?

As for the defence....Sammy was on record as saying that the defence was a close season priority. Now maybe his list of targets included defenders who for whatever reason ( and i believe that location is a key and NOT always money) decided to go elsewhere. But those he brought in ie McCann and Parrish have shown me no more than Jamie Burns did when he occupied the left back birth for a few games AND he had the natural abilty of going forward.

How about trying Drummy alongside Jimbo with Yates in for Adams and McStay on the right?

In midfield I'd play Stanners, Wayne in centre midfield and Mclachlan just in front of the back 4 with Howe, Taylor and O'Carroll as a front 3.

There you go...problems solved.

What no Mr T. Have you had a bottle or two of Red with your Sunday Roast.

[Christies Child]

Unfortunately MrT will be out for a few games with an ankle injury.

Otherwise I'd have him in place of Wayne to start with and then bring WC on for the last 30.

As for the red wine...that's to come in approx 15 minutes. All 3 bottles lined up and de-corked.

[OvertheBar]

When we got promotion we had a tough defence. Blackburn was quick and hard, Bents was tough, Yates was quick, hard and got forward, flobbery Dan was quite porky but he was playing with guile and he got stuck in. Nowadays we have a powder puff back line. Perhaps it isn't their natural game to get tough, but it doesn't frighten anybody. Artell is a big lad...so what? If you give him a prod he falls over backwards.

Pace is the problem, not a significant lack of skill at this level. Drummond has some skill, but remember how he used to perform with Perkins, Thommo and Twiss. Stanley is ok but not quick. Wainwright is a 'tidy' player, but he does the same stuff over and over, cuts back inside to the more congested areas. Put one of young whippets on and let them scamper up and down the touchline to at least wear the opposition out. Get Wayne on the other side to do the same, we don't get around the back of defences at all nowadays. No team has a player standing outside of the touchline, so lets stop worrying about tackles from that area and just beat them on the outside...that way we know where the tackle will come from.

Give the young guns a run out, we surely couldn't lose more games and you never know, us lot on the terraces may stop moaning about the same old rubbish and roar a bit louder to encourage the lads.

[OvertheBar]

Sorry to sound so 'negative' but I agree with Ned in the main. We can't keep saying it is going to be OK and nobody should complain. We pay a load of money to be entertained by the team and club, so please can we have a bit of entertainment. I do care if we lose, but I would go home with some hope if the team took 40 shots and missed each one, rather than try and tippy tappy around or aimlessly hoof it up the park and trust one of their defenders to make a mistake.

[P/T Indie]

We struggled for pace as it was last season and that was with Thommo and Baker, remember Darlo at home when they got 2 goals from our corners! So with the quicker players now gone we have even less which was always a worry of mine in the summer.

[Posh]

Good point Red Knight wasnt it a certain Jim harvey who never agreed with signing old league players as he felt they were on their way out of the game and just intrested in picking up the money so instead invested in youth.

is that the same Jim Harvey who signed Ruffer , Kelly , Lightfoot , Alan Morgan and O'Connor ?
some investment in youth there !

Interesting choice of players. Agree with the first four totally but Sean O'Connor went on to score regularly for QoS and reach a Scottish Cup Final on the back of his goals.

What's interesting is that O'Connor, Kelly, Ruffer, Twiss and Sollitt were all signings in Jim's big season where he was the given the cash to get promotion. Three of those five failed and it ended certain board members love affair with Jim Harvey that led to his sacking. This season we've brough a lot more in to consolidate and push forward but have so far gone backwards from last season.

JH's supposedly well-paid players were supplemented by young talent including Perks, Thommo, Carlton and Drummy. What's noticeable is that only Drummy left under JH while the rest have chosen to leave the club under Sammy. We used to keep players now they go as soon as they get a sniff of an offer. Why?

On the general point about JH v Sammy on signings. You've listed five players from ten seasons yet under Sammy I'd have errr - Burns, Grand, Allen, Meadowcroft, Jalal, Watt and a couple of others to come in my list. There are a few precious gems - Lewis and Baker (arguably an easy signing) - but the list as a whole is hardly inspiring.

[Heysham_Shrimp]

Good point Red Knight wasnt it a certain Jim harvey who never agreed with signing old league players as he felt they were on their way out of the game and just intrested in picking up the money so instead invested in youth.

is that the same Jim Harvey who signed Ruffer , Kelly , Lightfoot , Alan Morgan and O'Connor ?
some investment in youth there !

Interesting choice of players. Agree with the first four totally but Sean O'Connor went on to score regularly for QoS and reach a Scottish Cup Final on the back of his goals.

What's interesting is that O'Connor, Kelly, Ruffer, Twiss and Sollitt were all signings in Jim's big season where he was the given the cash to get promotion. Three of those five failed and it ended certain board members love affair with Jim Harvey that led to his sacking. This season we've brough a lot more in to consolidate and push forward but have so far gone backwards from last season.

JH's supposedly well-paid players were supplemented by young talent including Perks, Thommo, Carlton and Drummy. What's noticeable is that only Drummy left under JH while the rest have chosen to leave the club under Sammy. We used to keep players now they go as soon as they get a sniff of an offer. Why?

On the general point about JH v Sammy on signings. You've listed five players from ten seasons yet under Sammy I'd have errr - Burns, Grand, Allen, Meadowcroft, Jalal, Watt and a couple of others to come in my list. There are a few precious gems - Lewis and Baker (arguably an easy signing) - but the list as a whole is hardly inspiring.

I think I included Sean O'Connor because he was a big money signing (in terms of wages) of Jim Harvey and hardly played a game for us in 18 months.
He has done well since returning to Q o t S.

With regard to players leaving as soon as they get a sniff of an offer , that is down to league status as far as Thommo and Baker were concerned. No-one was rushing to sign them when they were in the Conference but as soon as they showed they could do it at a higher level the vultures came. From the rumours it would appear that their wages have gone way beyond any offer we could make. Danny Carlton also improved his salary beyond what we could offer.

As for Perks it is not clear what happened there. Maybe a former manager was in his ear.

[P/T Indie]

"What's interesting is that O'Connor, Kelly, Ruffer, Twiss and Sollitt were all signings in Jim's big season where he was the given the cash to get promotion. Three of those five failed and it ended certain board members love affair with Jim Harvey that led to his sacking. This season we've brough a lot more in to consolidate and push forward but have so far gone backwards from last season."


and the next season JH found himself with very little money to spend, it was as if the board & Chairman didn't trust him with their money anymore after those signings.

The question is will the board still trust Sammy with the money and with all these players on two year contracts it will be hard to bring new faces in next summer as everyone wills till be contracted. Also with attendances down our turnover ad wage cap next season will be even less than this year.

[nobbyshrimp]

Think its time we all started to face up to some facts:
FACT: We have the fourth lowest average attendance in the league (all things being equal this means we have the 4th lowest playing budget)
FACT: We don't have a stadium that is used on non-match days to provide extra revenue
FACT: We don't have a sugar daddy to provide stacks of cash
FACT: The effect of the above makes it difficult to attract the best players in the league when we can't pay the wages/transfer fees
FACT: We lost our best 2 players in the summer
FACT: We have to rely mainly on free transfers - these are a gamble and they don't always pay off
FACT: Our location makes it difficult to attract players (especially if we can't pay top dollar)
FACT: The club runs as a loss and the directors use their own money to keep us where we are
FACT: We have a great management team who put their all into the club and got us into the league in the first place
FACT: Football players respond to great support
FACT: We are a league club!

I don't want to use the 'r' word but we must stick with the board, the management and most importantly the players. Just staying in the league this season should be an acheivement considering all the above. I really do think the town needs to decide if we really want a league club or not. I do!

All agreed with except the free transfers. It isn't always necessary to 'buy' players and if you do then you're in a gambling situation with other clubs who are also willing to spend. Most lower league players will move geographically dependant on where their families live as long as they are offered 1st team football with at least some chance of success but what they mainly require is modern facilities!! This is fact Most clubs who offer modern training/playing facilities at least hold their own, unless they have financial restraints of course because (as we keep saying over and over again) the club generates extra revenue on none match days. Shrewsbury were a poor club until they moved but look at them now and before you say they paid for players, they didn't! They bought Holt and that was about it. Walker is on season long loan from Bristol, Daniels (goal keeper) season long loan from West Brom and others have been signed from higher leagues because of the facilities and hope of winning things.
Darlington (modern+big staduim) are holding there own with expectations of moving up the leagues, don't get tremendous attendancies but have the facilities to offer major events to raise extra funds such as 20,000+ attendances for rock concerts England reserve football matches etc etc. Little old Burton will eventually enter the league because they can attract the players to a small but modern ground but on the other hand Hereford, who like us are close to numerous other football clubs and stuck with an old outdated ground are struggling at the bottom of league1 with falling attendancies currently lower than when they were in the conference.
Basically, the fans and players of today expect and quite rightly so, up to date clean, modern facilities appropriate for the 20th Century. The sooner we move the better. Even a rich sugar daddy would struggle to atttact players to an old outdated ground. For now all we can do is back Sammy, Mark and the board and get behind the players of Morecambe FC who ever they may be! The team are doing there best on the pitch as I don't believe they go out there to lose and the board are doing there best off the pitch.
Cast your mind back not too far.....Leigh RMI V Morecambe or last Saturday, Gillingham V Morecambe. I know which I prefer