o/t Burning of the Koran!

[scar]

I've watched with interest as the growing depth of concern at one man's mission to burn a few books, abit a rather special book to those in the Muslim faith. This one man runs a local church with about 20 parishioners, so from my angle and viewpoint, he has attempted to make a bit of a stunt to increase his following, after all he only gets paid what he receives in collections right!

Which leads me to the media and their frenzy to report this man to everyone in the world. Now had the media acted with a bit of sensibility and told him that he was a nutter of prime proportions and didn't report it, then few outside of the very small village would have known about the book burning session.

There would have been no outcry from Muslim countries, no world leaders condeming it and certainly no-one would have been that bothered.

So who's worse, the man for being his nutter self, or the media for driving the report around the globe and whipping up a storm that was really never there in the first place?!

[George Dawes]

suppose its no different to when we show Muslim Clerics preaching hate and violence and condemning people to death

[Keith]

suppose its no different to when the media show Muslim Clerics preaching hate and violence and condemning people to death

Now I agree with you! The media makes the news all the time. But sometimes people struggle to see that it is a non-story made in to one. As DawZi says, some nutter Muslim clerics preaching hate are no different to this Christian cleric preaching hate. It is such a shame that so many people who have an imaginary friend hate people because they have a different imaginary friend.

[SkinnyShrimp]

Tell that to all the troops in Iraq and Afganistan - this will whip up the locals even more and this guy should be stopped from doing this under the grounds he is endangering allied troops who are at war! - how must the families of those who have loved ones fighting feel when they see and hear this biggot spouting off - absolute disgrace

[Troy Trotter]

Tell that to all the troops in Iraq and Afganistan - this will whip up the locals even more and this guy should be stopped from doing this under the grounds he is endangering allied troops who are at war! - how must the families of those who have loved ones fighting feel when they see and hear this biggot spouting off - absolute disgrace

Nice to hear a remark like that about our troop out there in afganistan.
Shame your picture porfile looks like one of them.
Afgan that is.

[Keith]

Does anyone else on here watch Jon Stewart's "The Daily Show" on E4? Despite being American, it's very funny, he takes the rip out of everyone, especially right wing bigots (my wife just said "and Fox News" but that's covered by "right wing bigots"). He lampooned this fool in tonight's show and will, I'm sure, really lay in to him if he actually goes ahead.

[EDIT: Just read that he's cancelled it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11255366 Shrimpsvoices, for all your breaking news!]

[Posh]

Let's be honest though, if you were going to burn books, e.g. to keep warm, then the Koran or the Bible would be a great choice. They've got loads of pages, thick and tightly compact. They'll burn ages and radiate heat well. Then when you need to replace it just nick one from a hotel room and bingo you've topped up the log pile.

[Freez]

I find any large fiction novels such as these burn well!

[shrimper]

The man's a complete loon, clearly.

But does not the fact that many muslims all over the world have chosen to ignore the virtually universal condemnation of his actions from everyone in any position of authority in western society, including the Pope and Obama, and threaten to respond violently against American targets - based purely on the actions of one renegade loon - kind of add weight to his argument?

I'd like to see Muslim leaders be a bit more vocal with comments like: "Ours is a strong religion and we can see that this is one idiot who is acting unilaterally. He has been condemned by his own society and we urge Muslims throughout the world to ignore him completely and not to respond, as he is a lone voice even within the Christian faith."

I've not looked but I'd hope that kind of view is now being promoted widely by sensible Muslims.

[Posh]

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/20 ... ted-so-far

Some chilled Muslim dudes there.

[wijit]

The man is a total prick. The media wouldn't have known about this had he not opted to publicise it. Rightly or not, he is putting at risk countless lives who already have more than a nob on their hands.
Keith has a good point about sensible Muslims, but lets get this right, if everybody was sensible then these stupid wars wouldn't be happening, would they?
Good luck to those who are going to be left picking up the pieces left by a selfish, self-publicising dick. A lifetime of damnation (sarcastic, not religious) on the media feeding his ego and happily preparing next weeks front pages.

[Plain Peter]

Wimp
Now he should go and burn the Bible and himself

Me and Doris are off on a 3 week D-i-Y jaunt round Tunisia in a few weeks.
We plan to avoid the coastal tourist traps as much as possible
Because of this idiot, and so we can safely blend in with the natives, I'll now be wearing a thobe and gutra, and Doris an abaya, scarf and niqab.
Anyone know how to eat ice cream wearing a niqab?

[George Dawes]

but lets get this right, if everybody was sensible then these stupid wars wouldn't be happening, would they?

i think there still would be, some of these extreme muslims ideology is for the world to be completely Muslim(like nazi's)

and would see this looney's actions in America as a lame excuse to preach such behaviour just like they did with Salmon Rushdie and that cartoonist from Denmark

they should just chill out and move with the times instead of living in the stone age

[Posh]

I agree that some people in some parts of the Muslim world are completely over-reacting and are far stronger in the zealot department than religious leaders in the west. Yet remember that's a supposed Christian church leader who kicked all this off in the first place; it was Christians at Waco, Jonestown; and it was Christians who butchered people in their thousands in the name of God in Uganda.

And on a lesser level but to me as important its Christians, together with other religions who are doing their best to divide our society with the delivery of more and more faith schools in this country. The vast majority of people in this country don't worship their faith, are agnostic or atheist. I don't want my children indocrinated by adults, whether its into the CofE, the Moonies or any other religion. I certainly don't want my tax money to pay for children to learn anti-science in the form of creationism, which happens at several Christian schools and virtually all state-funded Muslim schools.

http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/wh ... -Evolution
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/fait ... /episode-1
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5150 ... eam-school

[USA Shrimp]

I certainly don't want my tax money to pay for children to learn anti-science in the form of creationism, which happens at several Christian schools and virtually all state-funded Muslim schools.

Sounds like you could do with some sort of separation of church and state, Posh. SOund like any country you might know? Oh, wait....

Well, I suppose this is what you get when you throw all the religious nutters out of your country and send them to start a new nation over the ocean

[shrimper]

I agree that some people in some parts of the Muslim world are completely over-reacting and are far stronger in the zealot department than religious leaders in the west. Yet remember that's a supposed Christian church leader who kicked all this off in the first place; it was Christians at Waco, Jonestown; and it was Christians who butchered people in their thousands in the name of God in Uganda.

And on a lesser level but to me as important its Christians, together with other religions who are doing their best to divide our society with the delivery of more and more faith schools in this country. The vast majority of people in this country don't worship their faith, are agnostic or atheist. I don't want my children indocrinated by adults, whether its into the CofE, the Moonies or any other religion. I certainly don't want my tax money to pay for children to learn anti-science in the form of creationism, which happens at several Christian schools and virtually all state-funded Muslim schools.

http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/wh ... -Evolution
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/fait ... /episode-1
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5150 ... eam-school

That was my point - the rest I agree with.

My view is that when you switch off the normal analytical part of your brain that would, otherwise, cause you to question the very basis of religion (ie you 'just believe' - which I argue you have to to follow any deity-based faith) then you lay yourself open to all kinds of manipulation by those who claim access to the almighty and 'his' teachings.

Most of the time, and with most people, nothing sinister comes of that (and indeed a lot of good is done in the name of religion, though not much that couldn't be achieved without the trimmings of faith) but it does open up the extremists to all kinds of suggestion and dangerous nonsense that would otherwise be revealed as precisely that.

[Curly]

I agree that some people in some parts of the Muslim world are completely over-reacting and are far stronger in the zealot department than religious leaders in the west. Yet remember that's a supposed Christian church leader who kicked all this off in the first place; it was Christians at Waco, Jonestown; and it was Christians who butchered people in their thousands in the name of God in Uganda.

And on a lesser level but to me as important its Christians, together with other religions who are doing their best to divide our society with the delivery of more and more faith schools in this country. The vast majority of people in this country don't worship their faith, are agnostic or atheist. I don't want my children indocrinated by adults, whether its into the CofE, the Moonies or any other religion. I certainly don't want my tax money to pay for children to learn anti-science in the form of creationism, which happens at several Christian schools and virtually all state-funded Muslim schools.

http://www.humanism.org.uk/campaigns/wh ... -Evolution
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/fait ... /episode-1
http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5150 ... eam-school

That was my point - the rest I agree with.

My view is that when you switch off the normal analytical part of your brain that would, otherwise, cause you to question the very basis of religion (ie you 'just believe' - which I argue you have to to follow any deity-based faith) then you lay yourself open to all kinds of manipulation by those who claim access to the almighty and 'his' teachings.

Most of the time, and with most people, nothing sinister comes of that (and indeed a lot of good is done in the name of religion, though not much that couldn't be achieved without the trimmings of faith) but it does open up the extremists to all kinds of suggestion and dangerous nonsense that would otherwise be revealed as precisely that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=936R3asa1cU

Nuff said

Anyway if I had kids, I would fight for their right to throw burning magnesium at each other
in school science lessons!
Never did me any harm

[jonnythedog]

It's not unusual for people to actively seek to create or embrace an "us and them" situation with a different group. It happens in so many different situations and most of the time they are ridiculous. The Lancaster Uni collegiate system is a fine example, it actively exploits it with inter-college sport to create a kinship between college members, this is in no way a bad thing though when you consider how big the university is. As football fans we are exposed to this quite regularly. Jane Elliotts Blues Eyes/Brown Eyes experiment shows how easily prejudice can occur http://www.janeelliott.com/.

I have many interests and as part of those interest i'm constantly told that i'm not meant to like some other group. A good example is that I play rugby union for a local club, so as a rugby union player i'm not meant to like 1) Rugby League, 2) Football and 3) Any other clubs in the local area. All of these leave me in a somewhat difficult situation as I 1) Played Rugby League at Uni and had a Castleford season ticket for 2 years, 2) Love football and will be going to the Morecambe game tomorrow rather than playing rugby (resting up for the great north run) and 3) have played for more than one club in the local area. Now this is all pretty trivial when you compare it to religion.

So bare that in mind and than exacerbate it a million times over. Religions represent millions of people and as part of this there are people who are willing to die for their beliefs. For me, one of the of the key reasons that religions exist is so they can be a moral guide or a form of social contol. When someone chooses to become a priest or a vicar they are putting themselves on a pedestal that says they are going to be a religious guide or moral leader to the followers of that religion. Therefore for someone in this position to make the decision to destroy something which means so much to members of another religion he is showing a shocking lack of respect and responsibility to not only the followers of the alternative religion but also to his own followers as he meant to be their moral guide. When you consider this and the possibility as others have mentioned, that this guy has done this to gain media attention, so has essentially sold out his responsibilities for a bit of coverage in what is already a pretty volatile environment, you can only come to the conclusion that he is a total prick.

[Posh]

I think perhaps another way of looking at the difference between Christianity and Islam, and perhaps the ridiculousness of both, is the concept of fasting as a means of showing that sacrifice is a true sign of worship. Christians toss a few pancakes and then go 40 days without having caviar or lobster in order to show their love of God. Meanwhile Muslims go 30 days without placing anything in their mouths during sunlight - no food, no drink, no fags, no blowjobs, nothing. The Lent thing you can mess about with but with Ramadan it's hardly like you can cheat. "Ooh sun's gone behind a cloud, quick pork pie".

[jonnythedog]

"Ooh sun's gone behind a cloud, quick pork pie".

I agree with your wider point though and it's such a negative and selfish way of showing commitment. Rather than giving something up why not start something good?

[skyecat]

Holly Near put it nicely:

I ain't afraid

Chorus
I ain't afraid of your Yahweh
I ain't afraid of your Allah
I ain't afraid of your Jesus
I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your god

I ain't afraid of your churches
I ain't afraid of your temples
I ain't afraid of your praying
I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your god

Verse
Rise up to your higher power
Free up from fear, it will devour you
Watch out for the ego of the hour
The ones who say they know it
Are the ones who will impose it on you

Chorus

Verse
Rise up, and see a higher story
Free up from the gods of war and glory
Watch out for the threats of purgatory
The spirit of the wind wont make a killing off of sin and satan

I aint afraid of your Bible
I aint afraid of your Torah
I aint afraid of your Koran
Dont let the letter of the law
Obscure the spirit of your love it's killing us

I aint afraid of your money
I aint afraid of your borders
I aint afraid of your choices

I aint afraid of your Sunday
I aint afraid of your Sabbath
I aint afraid of your teachers

I aint afraid of your dances
I aint afraid of your music
I aint afraid of your children
I'm afraid of what you do in the name of your god

[Keith]

Jon Stewart said of this guy that he was burning the Koran as a challenge to stop the building of the mosque near the site of the 9/11 attacks because they are "extremists".

He said "so one lot of extremists burn the Koran while the other lot of extremists read from it"

I don't think it's a coincidence that the word 'fundamentalist' contains the word 'mentalist'!

[George Dawes]

It's not unusual for people to actively seek to create or embrace an "us and them" situation with a different group. It happens in so many different situations and most of the time they are ridiculous. The Lancaster Uni collegiate system is a fine example, it actively exploits it with inter-college sport to create a kinship between college members, this is in no way a bad thing though when you consider how big the university is. As football fans we are exposed to this quite regularly. Jane Elliotts Blues Eyes/Brown Eyes experiment shows how easily prejudice can occur http://www.janeelliott.com/.

I have many interests and as part of those interest i'm constantly told that i'm not meant to like some other group. A good example is that I play rugby union for a local club, so as a rugby union player i'm not meant to like 1) Rugby League, 2) Football and 3) Any other clubs in the local area. All of these leave me in a somewhat difficult situation as I 1) Played Rugby League at Uni and had a Castleford season ticket for 2 years, 2) Love football and will be going to the Morecambe game tomorrow rather than playing rugby (resting up for the great north run) and 3) have played for more than one club in the local area. Now this is all pretty trivial when you compare it to religion.

So bare that in mind and than exacerbate it a million times over. Religions represent millions of people and as part of this there are people who are willing to die for their beliefs. For me, one of the of the key reasons that religions exist is so they can be a moral guide or a form of social contol. When someone chooses to become a priest or a vicar they are putting themselves on a pedestal that says they are going to be a religious guide or moral leader to the followers of that religion. Therefore for someone in this position to make the decision to destroy something which means so much to members of another religion he is showing a shocking lack of respect and responsibility to not only the followers of the alternative religion but also to his own followers as he meant to be their moral guide. When you consider this and the possibility as others have mentioned, that this guy has done this to gain media attention, so has essentially sold out his responsibilities for a bit of coverage in what is already a pretty volatile environment, you can only come to the conclusion that he is a total prick.

well put but!! they(extremists) dont think like us evil west

[Plain Peter]

Meanwhile Muslims go 30 days without placing anything in their mouths during sunlight - no food, no drink, no fags, no blowjobs, nothing. The Lent thing you can mess about with but with Ramadan it's hardly like you can cheat. "Ooh sun's gone behind a cloud, quick pork pie".

When it does go dark they don't half give it some though, and stuff themselves silly.
By the end of the holy month most of them are so hyper on sugar they ain't fit behind the wheel of a car.
And what do they do when the moon has waned, they have a 3 day party.
Fasting is all a con.