O/T 3 LETTERS BY OUR LEADER

[marky]

To be honest, I believe the fate of the current government lies as much with the proposed referendum on Alternative Vote as it does on the rest of the legislative agenda. Whilst Clegg has laid his bed with the Tories and won't want to get out for another 4 years, I can't see the rest of his party maintaining the same zeal for government should the referendum result in a no vote. That's if it even happens, of course, given the coalition has seen fit to lump it in with taking a pair of scissors to constuencies and the number of MPs.

As an aside, given how unpopular Labour were just a year ago, it is incredible to now see them leading in many polls. These may be unusual times, but that is still utterly astonishing.

[Keith]

As an aside, given how unpopular Labour were just a year ago, it is incredible to now see them leading in many polls. These may be unusual times, but that is still utterly astonishing.

What I find interesting is that the left of centre President of the USA has gone from hugely popular to likely to lose the next election while the right of centre UK government will almost certainly lose the next election. Unusual times indeed. Like it or not, the government in power now, either side of the Atlantic, is cleaning up the mess of the previous administration and will pay for it by being voted out ASAP.

[durhamshrimp]

As an aside, given how unpopular Labour were just a year ago, it is incredible to now see them leading in many polls. These may be unusual times, but that is still utterly astonishing.

What I find interesting is that the left of centre President of the USA has gone from hugely popular to likely to lose the next election while the right of centre UK government will almost certainly lose the next election. Unusual times indeed. Like it or not, the government in power now, either side of the Atlantic, is cleaning up the mess of the previous administration and will pay for it by being voted out ASAP.

He's left of centre by American standards, their system is shifted a long way to the right of ours. Their Democrats are more right wing than our Tories.

The reason they'll get voted out on this side of the Atlantic is they're not cleaning up this supposed mess, they're making it a lot lot worse. Hence they'll lose (not that they won the election in the first place).

[Plain Peter]

The reason they'll get voted out on this side of the Atlantic is they're not cleaning up this supposed mess, they're making it a lot lot worse. Hence they'll lose (not that they won the election in the first place).

The Coalition is trying to clear up an horrendous mess made, and handed down, by the Labour government.
The Labour opposition are now saying that they would make a much better job of clearing up such an horrendous mess.
How?

[Posh]

The Coalition is trying to clear up an horrendous mess made, and handed down, by the Labour government.

Sorry but repeating Tory propaganda does not qualify you for Andy Coulson's old job.

Government finances are in a mess but as has been stated elsewhere they are far better than most other Western economies including Japan, USA, Italy and Spain. Britain's debt rose almost entirely due to having to bail out banks and save the economy from total collapse with a stimulus package. Every government in the Western world did the same to sort out the banks and stave off an economic collapse.

So Peter stop the bollocks, stop being a deficit denier and start focusing efforts on your political prejudices so we can deal with the real villains - the bankers and their supporters who got us in this mess so we can get some of out money back.

P.S. When Ireland, Portugal, Spain and Italy default and the $2 trillion of debt in US muncipals sees US towns and cities go bust, who are you going to blame when we have to bail out our banks all over again - or will that Gordon Brown's fault too?

The Labour opposition are now saying that they would make a much better job of clearing up such an horrendous mess.
How?

[/quote]

Simple. Don't cut so fast because you make screw ups and force us into a recession (economy shrunk last quarter). And put in place a plan for growth when you make cuts not just hope it happens. What we're seeing is economics by millionaires for millionaires and not for the ordinary working people that the Osborne's of this world have no conception of or know how any of us live.

[Plain Peter]

Tripe - here's the latest from the CBI on Monday:

http://cbi.org.uk/ndbs/press.nsf/0363c1f07c6ca12a8025671c00381cc7/f84f9fe2a2c4cf2f802578220030e5ca?OpenDocument

Tuesday's output figures further go to suggest that the depth of the doo doo is still not understood by even those who should know better:

[Keith]

Labour had two terms to make things better. What they achieved is through incredibly expensive mortgages which keep the debt off the balance sheet, took us in to an illegal war, which for people like Marky who don't think the human loss of life is bad enough, has cost the UK about £20 billion so far. The final bail out of the banks has been estimated at between £20 billion & £50 billion (allowing for future sale of government owned shares). And of course, you can only sell the country's gold reserves once. Desperately selling them at the lowest price possible to try and mask the economic mess may have bought them a bit of time but was hardly good economics. Pity no experts advised against it... oh... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 655001.ece

I don't like this lot but I liked the last lot even less. Trouble is the Lib Dem selling their soul for a few years of power will make them practically untouchable next time out so where next? Labour's liars and incompetents or Tories rich for the rich?

By the way, which schools did Blair and Darling go to? Comprehensives or private? They hardly come from working class stock either.

[Posh]

Tripe - here's the latest from the CBI on Monday:

http://cbi.org.uk/ndbs/press.nsf/0363c1f07c6ca12a8025671c00381cc7/f84f9fe2a2c4cf2f802578220030e5ca?OpenDocument

Tripe eh?

Quote Posh: "put in place a plan for growth when you make cuts not just hope it happens"

Quote Richard Lambert, Director General of the CBI from your own link: "My argument this morning is that the Government has not been nearly so consistent and focussed when it comes to policies that support growth. It’s failed so far to articulate in big picture terms its vision of what the UK economy might become under its stewardship.

"And it’s taken a series of policy initiatives for political reasons, apparently careless of the damage that they might do to business and to job creation."

Tuesday's output figures further go to suggest that the depth of the doo doo is still not understood by even those who should know better:

What his chart shows is Labour stimulus measures providing two quarters of growth and then an excellent 1% Q2 growth which crossed over the Election, the ConDems then followed this with 0.5% for Q3 and then -0.5% for Q4. Downhill trend to me. With cuts and a VAT rise to come it will take a while to turn it around even though Germany and the US already have.

[Posh]

The final bail out of the banks has been estimated at between £20 billion & £50 billion (allowing for future sale of government owned shares)

I can't be arsed arguing the toss about your abhorence of the Labour government - fair enough about Blair and Iraq. However I've got to pick you up on the ludicrous idea that the war in Iraq cost the same as bailing out banks or about £20 billion.

The total cost of the bailouts was put at £850 billion in early 2009. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 33830.html

The final figure is widely believed to be over £1 trillion or over 200% more than our entire national debt in 2007. Some put the cost at over £1.5 trillion http://www.money.co.uk/article/1002877- ... c-debt.htm. If the Irish economy defaults then it could easily rise to £1.8 trillion as our exposure to Ireland is over £300 billion.

We could have invaded half the world for that!

[Keith]

I can't be arsed arguing the toss about your abhorence of the Labour government - fair enough about Blair and Iraq. However I've got to pick you up on the ludicrous idea that the war in Iraq cost the same as bailing out banks or about £20 billion.

The total cost of the bailouts was put at £850 billion in early 2009. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 33830.html

The final figure is widely believed to be over £1 trillion or over 200% more than our entire national debt in 2007. Some put the cost at over £1.5 trillion http://www.money.co.uk/article/1002877- ... c-debt.htm. If the Irish economy defaults then it could easily rise to £1.8 trillion as our exposure to Ireland is over £300 billion.

We could have invaded half the world for that!

The NAO report put a question mark over the Treasury's estimate of the taxpayers' long-term bill for the rescue of between £20bn and £50bn, saying it will depend heavily on the Government's sale of its stakes in RBS and Lloyds.

Amyas Morse, the NAO's head, said: "The big question is what all of this will eventually cost the taxpayer. This will take time to answer.

"When it comes to selling its stakes in the banks, the Government has to be mindful of the proceeds for the taxpayer but also of the implications for competition in the UK market, so that customers get a fair deal. As the crisis begins to subside, lessons must start to be learned."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 33830.html

Based on assumptions set out in our book, the budgetary cost to the UK of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan through 2010 will total more than £18 billion. If we include the social costs, the total impact on the UK will exceed £20 billion.
Joseph Stiglitz and Linda Bilmes, 2008. The Three Trillion Dollar War

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 419840.ece

[Plain Peter]

By the way, which schools did Blair and Darling go to? Comprehensives or private? They hardly come from working class stock either.

At least they're history.
It's Mr Balls we should be scared of now.
What's his education background?

[Plain Peter]

Sorting out the mess passed on by the last government is going to cause enormous social upheaval.
The sooner people realise that the "money for nothing" gravy train of cheap loans and rising equity has left town and it isn't coming back any time soon then the better. If we have a return to that the long-term implications for the UK could be catastrophic.
If we want something we have to pay for it with earned money. That has become almost an alien concept in the UK at a personal and national level

[Posh]

Keith I think that this is part of the wider mythology. Those figures from the NAO have been derided as they assume that share prices will return to pre-2007 levels. Yet these are already very different banks from those pre-crisis, there are huge levels of risk in the system and very little appetite for investors to move back into banks.

However it does undermine the wider myth about the deficit. A revival in banking stocks and a government sell off would wipe out far more of the deficit than the extreme cuts to public services could. The Labour government bailed out the banks but took stakes which could be realised in future. However we should have completely nationalised RBS and Lloyds HBOS so we had a greater holding to sell.

That investment is mirrored in PFI. While admittedly costing more and often poorly executed, investment made under PFI (and state funding) has seen more hospitals, schools and courts built under Labour than any time since the Victorians. Also when structured properly we get new assets like the Dartford Bridge and the Second Severn Crossing, both back in public ownership, for free.

At least we get something back. In the USA, and countries like Italy, their local authorities have debts that exceed that of PFI but with nothing to show for it.

[Plain Peter]

That investment is mirrored in PFI. While admittedly costing more and often poorly executed, investment made under PFI (and state funding).....

Not just pocket money is it.....:

http://www.uepengland.com/bbs/index.php/topic/24626-l24-million-labour-showpiece-school-closes-after-only-two-years/

[shrimper]

Pint anyone?

[George Dawes]

Pint anyone?

good shout! stuff writing essays about politics

[Keith]

Keith I think that this is part of the wider mythology. Those figures from the NAO have been derided as they assume that share prices will return to pre-2007 levels.

This wasn't an NAO report it was a Treasury report. And Alistair Darling was in charge. So if the figures have been "derided" and were falsely optimistic it brings me back to my previous point...

Labour's liars and incompetents...

Alistair Darling, was he lying or incompetent?

[Posh]

That investment is mirrored in PFI. While admittedly costing more and often poorly executed, investment made under PFI (and state funding).....

Not just pocket money is it.....:

http://www.uepengland.com/bbs/index.php/topic/24626-l24-million-labour-showpiece-school-closes-after-only-two-years/

This school is failing because Catholics and Anglicans won't send their children to a joint faith school. That says more about the problem with religion in education (all faith schools should be closed and open again as secular) than it does about PFI.

P.S. Selective quoting from a well-known Fascist racist messageboard. Who would have thought!

[Plain Peter]

P.S. Selective quoting from a well-known Fascist racist messageboard. Who would have thought!

Que?
I wish you'd print the whole truth instead of baffling us with graphs, lists, percentages, your own bits of rocket science, and selective spinning of the truth.
I ain't that clever, but nor am I stupid.
Keep spinning, and if I don't like it then I'll question what you say.
Can't see the problem.

[mrpotatohead]

I am with peter on this, posh must have o lot of time on his hands here to lecture us plankton on these matters